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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33326: May 10th 2015 at 9:25:59 AM

Yeah, originally she called what she did 'hexes' and they caused bad luck for whoever she used them against.

Reality warping came much later.

In between, she learned to cast Meteo and hit Thor with a meteor, for his own good.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33327: May 10th 2015 at 11:49:42 AM

In the film, her powers are basically a combination of Professor X and Jean Grey. Can't remember if they even mentioned magic. Guess it wouldn't make much "sense" for magic powers to come from a non-magical source (HYDRA's science experiments).

edited 10th May '15 11:49:58 AM by PurpleDalek

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33328: May 10th 2015 at 11:53:11 AM

Science are magic are pretty much the same in the MCU anyway, right?

"We're home, Chewie."
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33329: May 10th 2015 at 11:57:01 AM

Its been a while since I've seen the Thor movies, but I think it was left ambiguous whether or not the Asgardians are using magic or extremely advanced technology.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33330: May 10th 2015 at 11:58:00 AM

The way Thor talks it's technically both. Asgard seems to use extremely advanced Magitek for a lot of things.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33331: May 10th 2015 at 11:59:52 AM

In Dark World, Jane recognizes one of their whosits as extremely advanced technology, or equivalent.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#33332: May 10th 2015 at 12:04:30 PM

They seem to be using high tech with some magic enhancements on top. Only using magic seems to be seen as someone being weak going by some comments by the W3 and Sif about Loki.

In the comics pretty much everything was magic before Asgard got trashed and had to be rebuilt with a new way to fly. An iPad was seen as high tech to them(Kid!Loki is pretty much the only one that embraces the digital age).

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33333: May 10th 2015 at 12:14:05 PM

AOU must be the apotheosis of the Magic=Science in the MCU given that Loki's magic sceptre actually contains an AI (Ultron) that is of a higher tech than but still recognizable to Tony Stark as close to the tech he knows how to create (probably also add this one to the annals of "Tony is a near Mary Sue").

Don't get me wrong, it makes sense in a comic book way, but it's funny seeing one of the most clearly magical elements being presented as something clearly scientific.

edited 10th May '15 12:15:08 PM by Hodor2

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33334: May 10th 2015 at 12:17:30 PM

Personally I don't see any difference between magic and science, so I find the discussion of "whether X is magic or science" to be a little silly tongue

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33335: May 10th 2015 at 12:24:33 PM

I kind of agree, and I'm sympathetic to the argument put forward by Max Gladstone that modern technology is pretty "magical" (i.e. I can use a cellphone but I don't have the slightest idea how to make one).

On the idea, bringing androids to life with Norse magic science is pretty strange.

edited 10th May '15 12:24:49 PM by Hodor2

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33336: May 10th 2015 at 12:24:44 PM

Same here. Science isn't a physical property, it's a methodology. Magic is a property that can be examined by that methodology.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33337: May 10th 2015 at 12:30:18 PM

Magic could just be scientific processes we don't understand. The ability to make a device that allows instant communication with people on the other side of the world would be pretty magical to any person living more than two centuries ago.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#33338: May 10th 2015 at 12:31:00 PM

I like stories that mix and match them, but mostly I prefer ones that have an explicit definition of the difference, even if that difference is just "there are some guys who calls themselves wizards, and they don't like guys who call themselves scientists."

The MCU has made clear since Thor that they don't actually care about the difference. It's just terminology. Sure, Asgardian warriors like Thor and Sif don't understand magic, but not because it's some unknowable thing. They don't understand it in the same way that normal people don't understand cell phones. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. had a nice moment in the first Sif episode where she saw nothing wrong with a human scientist trying to fix Asgardian magitech (though she wasn't sure he'd have the right materials).

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33339: May 10th 2015 at 12:32:06 PM

I don't know, you can't really provide scientific arguments for pure fantasy stuff like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33340: May 10th 2015 at 12:33:57 PM

You can't do that for the warp drives in Star Trek either but those aren't considered magic.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#33341: May 10th 2015 at 12:42:00 PM

My take on it is that science is employing the laws of the universe to your favor, while magic is ignoring the laws of the universe to your favor. Concept here being magic is inherently illogical and against the laws of the universe, and it only works by virtue of reality-warping, making a wizard a Reality Warper of sorts.

In my head the difference between magic and science is such:

"My giant robot works because X" "My ancient spell works because I want it to work"

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33342: May 10th 2015 at 12:43:12 PM

[up][up]Good point.

I guess I'm wary of trying to explain magic as science, because I start having midichlorian flashbacks.tongue

edited 10th May '15 12:47:42 PM by PurpleDalek

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33343: May 10th 2015 at 12:55:11 PM

I guess I'm wary of trying to explain magic as science, because I start having midichlorian flashbacks.

OKAY NO YOU LISTEN TO ME. Midichlorians are what allow a living creature to manipulate and communicate with the Force, they do not produce the Force, they do not make the Force any less magical, they are not Doing In the Wizard, they are a pseudoscientific addition to a magic system.

...Sorry. I have a lot of midichlorian-related emotions.

"We're home, Chewie."
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#33344: May 10th 2015 at 12:59:16 PM

[up] THANK YOU!

@ Kostya: Actually, warp drives have always been a surprisingly plausible means of FTL travel. We're actually currently shockingly close to making it a reality. There are no working prototypes or anything, but according to the math it's buildable, and they're looking into it. Admittedly, I have no idea how close the Star Trek model mirrors the Alcubierre Drive, but there it is.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33345: May 10th 2015 at 1:02:18 PM

Okay, in the original trilogy the Force was this mystical power that anyone, with the right amount of training, could master.

But no. Midichlorians come along and its no longer about hard work: its about having the right genes. Fuck that.

To keep this vaguely on topic: it would be like saying you don't need to be worthy to wield Thor's hammer. You just have to be related to Odin.

edited 10th May '15 1:04:17 PM by PurpleDalek

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33347: May 10th 2015 at 1:05:32 PM

There was never any indication that the Force is something anyone can learn! Granted there's not a lot of strong implications for the Force being hereditary (ROJ implies it a bit), but still.

That being said, being against the idea that it's hereditary is an entirely fine opinion to have. I just hate the Doing In the Wizard argument. And also the argument that this is purely a prequel trilogy problem.

edited 10th May '15 1:07:20 PM by Zarek

"We're home, Chewie."
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33348: May 10th 2015 at 1:06:02 PM

[up]x3 I don't really get the impression "anyone, with the right training" could master the Force. Otherwise, wouldn't the Empire be training its soldiers to use it, seeing as they've got a couple of Force masters in charge? Or, hell, wouldn't Yoda tell Luke to start training Rebels or something? Instead, everyone acts as though Palpatine, Vader, Luke and Leia are the only folks anyone knows of who could possibly use the dang thing.

edited 10th May '15 1:06:18 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33349: May 10th 2015 at 1:07:28 PM

Magic - in fiction, rather than as a general term - is a thematic concept. In fiction, which has the benefit of being able to treat it as such, it describes a system of rules, elements and most importantly portrayals of those rules and elements that are typically steeped in mythology, folklore, etc. Depending on the setting, magic and be divine, spiritual, natural or something in between, but an element of otherworldliness is, at least, a major factor.

Science is a methodology, and is incorrectly used in that comparison - it's impossible for science to be opposed to anything concrete (that is, anything tangible), because science it a practice of understanding not a system of rules that exists on its own. Describing magic as something that can't be understood by science is also incorrect, since that's not what magic in that context actually means.

Or in short, the whole "magic vs science" bit depends entirely on defining both terms in a way that they shouldn't actually be in that comparison.

When people say magic vs science, rather than "science" they usually mean technology - and most often they mean modern technology (that is, anything past the first Industrial Revolution). When you go further back, you get more examples of folk characters using magic and tech in tandem.

edited 10th May '15 1:09:50 PM by KnownUnknown

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#33350: May 10th 2015 at 1:09:32 PM

its no longer about hard work: its about having the right genes.

Like Naruto? [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?

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