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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33277: May 9th 2015 at 7:18:36 PM

I could lie?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33278: May 9th 2015 at 7:20:42 PM

Um, I'm pretty sure they never tried to make the Vision into Native American representation. That would be beyond silly. He was always a purple-skinned (and sometimes white-skinned) robot.

Now, Victor Mancha, you might argue, is Hispanic representation, even though he's a robot, too.

edited 9th May '15 7:21:01 PM by alliterator

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33279: May 9th 2015 at 7:20:59 PM

[up][up]See, if you've got to lie, then I know I'm right, so you've confirmed it anyway.

[up]I mean, no one's gonna argue Clark Kent isn't white representation, even though he's not even human and so really shouldn't be part of our racial constructs anyway.

So I'm cool with the idea of a Hispanic robot. Hell, I'd be cool with the idea of a Native American robot, if it wasn't a retcon predicated entirely on said robot's paint job being one that could lead to said robot being accurately described with a racial slur.

edited 9th May '15 7:25:00 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33280: May 9th 2015 at 7:26:41 PM

I only remember two things regarding the thing.

One, Vision insisting that the Avengers help a native tribe being exploited by some jerky business guy who also turned out to be Taurus of the Zodiac

and after a fervent anti-robosexual group suicide bombed Vision, among the well-wishers were some native americans who said something like red people have to stick together.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33282: May 9th 2015 at 7:28:07 PM

[up] ...yeah, neither of those says that they meant Vision to be Native American representation to me. The second just seems like a very poorly done joke.

edited 9th May '15 7:28:34 PM by alliterator

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33283: May 9th 2015 at 7:39:27 PM

At the end of AOU, we've gone from six white guys, a black guy, and a white woman to six white guys, two women, two black guys (maybe three depending on what Fury's up to)

I think they were talking about the new Avenger line up, which is just one white guysnote , plus the two woman, the two black guys and the male robot. That was quite an improvement. I really hope the next movies establish this team as just begin as "valid" as the original 5.

That said, the solo movies are still dominated by white dudes right now and in the foreseeable future.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33284: May 9th 2015 at 7:49:29 PM

Looking it up, the second example was in issue 113

and I was a bit off. The native americans show up to offer support when Vision and Wanda go public with their romance.

"I hear tell that this Vision fella has red skin — so I baked him up a cake, sort of from me to a soul brother!"

And after that Vision gets exploded by fervent anti-robosexuals

The other thing was from issue 80 when (some of) the Avengers team up with native american hero Red Wolf but I couldn't find the thing that I thought I was thinking of.

edited 9th May '15 8:00:38 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
GoukaRyuu Since: Aug, 2012
#33285: May 9th 2015 at 8:00:44 PM

Given Northern Ireland it is very possible for Cap to be both of Irish descent and Protestant.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33286: May 9th 2015 at 8:01:47 PM

[up][up][up]I can't escape the impression that Tony, Bruce, Clint and Thor aren't off the team. I mean, they're all presumably gonna be in Infinity War. And even if they're not, Infinity War is still, what, three, four years away? "This movie was mostly white folks but there'll be less in the next one we swear" doesn't really fix the problems with the movie itself being mostly white guys. It's not like they didn't have a perfect reason for Tony, at least, not to be in this one.

And yeah, the individual films are still mostly white guys.

edited 9th May '15 8:02:38 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33287: May 9th 2015 at 8:35:03 PM

I don't think anybody is saying it's ideal but it is getting better even if it's slow. I kind of wish the movie made it clear that the twins are Romani Jews. Those two groups don't always get represented.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33288: May 9th 2015 at 8:43:54 PM

[up][up]Civil War is just next year, and we know most of the retire Avengers aren't going to be in the team, although Tony will be in the movie anyway.

I see your point. What I a, saying is that the motion for change, at last in that one franchise, is happening. If they menage to convince the new team as "true" Avengers, both in Civil War beyond, then at last the Avengers franchise will have a diverse cast.

Of course, they can still fuck this up quite easily. If the new team don't receive enough screen time in Civil War, and then is quickly replaced in Infinity War by the originals, then suddenly the all diverse cast is undermined and the mighty white guy quintet will rein supreme. I hope this doesn't happen. At last Marvel have a good reason to not want this to happen, as the actors don't want to play these characters forever, so it would be good for the franchise if new characters shine.

[up]At last the twins are clearly non Russians Eastern Europeans. This is actually an underrepresented group by itself. And in European context, it is a group that really suffer a lot prejudice. But, yeah, it would be nice if they were explicit Romani/Jew as well.

PS:It just occurred to me it is quite weird the movie used "Sokovia" as the birthplace of the twins, when they could go with the equally fictional Transia, which is their home country in the comics.

edited 9th May '15 8:50:55 PM by Heatth

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33289: May 9th 2015 at 8:59:28 PM

Yeah, a lot of online discussions about race seem to conflate "white" with "Western European" when it's... quite a lot more complicated than that. On the flip side I've also seen the argument that Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Saami, Bretons, or even the Irish are nonwhite for various reasons most of which are sourced in pseudohistory or ironically Social Darwinist propaganda.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#33290: May 9th 2015 at 9:00:39 PM

Yeah, it's a real shame they didn't hire actual Roma actors to play Pietro and Wanda, but whatever. We can just pretend.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33291: May 9th 2015 at 9:12:55 PM

I do wish they at least mentioned the movie!Maximoffs having Roma ancestry in some way. I don't think there are many famous enough actors with prominent Roma heritage to get around the whole whitewashing issue, which is disappointing, but at least some acknolwedgement would've been nice, and it would've served as a form of Fair for Its Day representation until more Eastern European Roma actors are able to cross Hollywood's radar.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33292: May 9th 2015 at 9:35:18 PM

[up][up][up]The thing is, "White race" is an arbitrary social construct that means different things for different people. It is really hard to discuss on a global context.

[up][up]For example, for me it doesn't I don't bat an eye at them casting a English dude to be an Romani character, for the same reason I wouldn't find weird if a Englishman was hired as an Italian. For me, they are all "white". I am perfectly aware this perception is not the same for everyone, in particular in Europe.

edited 9th May '15 9:36:41 PM by Heatth

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33293: May 9th 2015 at 9:39:47 PM

There is one problem with making that explicit though. In the movie they evidently volunteered to be experimented on by Hydra. Before seeing the movie I figured they were taken against their will but that doesn't seem to be the case. Having two Jewish people willingly cooperate with a Neo-Nazi organization is a bit eyebrow raising.

Edit: I've always been of the opinion that hiring an actor of the proper ethnicity is ideal but unless it's an important aspect of the character you can get away with hiring someone that can pass for the ethnicity in question. Hiring a British person to play a German doesn't matter because as long as they can do a convincing accent it's pretty hard to tell the difference. Hiring a white man to play a character in ancient China would be ridiculous.

edited 9th May '15 9:43:52 PM by Kostya

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#33294: May 9th 2015 at 9:42:34 PM

Romani aren't white, though?

I mean, I am, but my mother was so dark she didn't sunburn. We run a pretty big gamut.

edited 9th May '15 9:46:13 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#33295: May 9th 2015 at 9:46:35 PM

I thought Romani were generally between Western Europeans and Indians in skin tone. The twins are only half Romani anyway so they could just be light skinned compared to most.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33296: May 9th 2015 at 9:49:13 PM

[up][up]Eh, I just threw "Romani people" in the Google and concluded I would probably call them white if I didn't know. The skin color really vary, though. At any rate, in the comics Wanda and Pietro are certainly light skinned. Unless explicitly told, I am reasonably sure most people would just assume they are white.

The are possible half/European Jew, too, a group I most certainly call 'white'.

edited 9th May '15 9:50:18 PM by Heatth

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#33297: May 9th 2015 at 9:52:53 PM

Like I said, we run the gamut. But the fact that we do get pretty dark means you can't just lump us in as "white."

Especially considering "white people" are generally distrustful towards us.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33298: May 9th 2015 at 9:58:08 PM

[up][up][up]Roma are very diverse in skintone. A lot of them look very similar to Indians, a lot of others are indistinguishable from their non-Roma "white" neighbors, so Taylor-Johnson and Olsen could've been passed off as the latter had they chosen to go that route.

[up][up]Ashkenazi (which the Maximoffs would've been) are, I don't think the Mizrahi are though, and I'm not so sure what the Sephardi consider themselves though.

edited 9th May '15 9:58:45 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33299: May 9th 2015 at 10:00:44 PM

The whole point of Steve is that he has no own stakes in the game. He used to be the "outsider" because of his various illnesses, but in his current version he is practically the most privileged guy on earth, white, blond, blue-eyed, in peak condition and following the popular belief system of his time. Meaning he could lean back and enjoy what he has, but he doesn't want to, because fighting against what he perceives as bullies in important for him. The moment he does have a personal reason to do so, it undermines the very core of the character.

About Martin Freeman...Everett Ross (if he even plays the character) in the comics has no relation to General Ross, right? I wonder if they change this for the movie or perhaps do a running gag with everyone assuming that they are somehow related.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33300: May 9th 2015 at 10:05:57 PM

[up][up][up]I know that. I was never saying all Romani should be considered 'white' or, for that matter, that any should. What I am saying is that these definitions vary from place to place and from people to people and that I, personally, would guess a light skinned Romani was "white" if I didn't know any better. Naturally, if one would correct me, I would apologize and gladly use the category they are more comfortable with, if any.

Case in point, I just learned that two presidents here in Brazil are apparently of Romani descent. I am pretty sure they are wildly considered to be "white" over here. Specially considering they were president on the 20s and the 50s, when racism was par for the course.

[up][up]I was talking about the Ashkenazi, yeah. And I am not sure if it is "right" to call them white either. I am pretty sure many wouldn't. I am just saying what I would do naturally, at last within the context I am most used to.


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