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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33251: May 9th 2015 at 5:23:01 PM

I watched the Avengers 2 today with friends. I guess I prefered the first movie. This one seems more like it's only there because there needs to be a movie between the ones that came before and the ones that will come after. Again, I'm not following everything in the cinematic universe, so maybe I'm missing some stuff.

I'm trying to decide my opinions on the female characters and Vision. By that, I mean Natasha/Banner's relationship, the only surviving twin and... well, Vision.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33252: May 9th 2015 at 5:28:21 PM

Just got back from seeing Age of Ultron, and... it was okay. I liked it fine, but it was sometimes hard to follow the plot; speaking of which, it also seemed to move at just a bit too fast of pace without giving the characters that much time to develop or interact. And don't get me wrong, there's still some of that in there; I just would have liked to see more. You can tell that there was stuff left on the cutting room; it's as if all we got was what was absolutely necessary to make the movie watchable, and all of the bits that werent absolutely essential were taken out to reduce the running time. What the movie needed was breathing room, but because 40 or so minutes were chopped off, the film wasn't give any. Here's hoping that the extended version fixes some of this, and turns a decently enjoyable film into a really enjoyable one.

Also, I'm just a mite pissed at Quicksilvers' death, mainly because I know that he goes on to have a long and stories history in the comics, but hey, he at least got to be in a whole Avengers film and was given a pretty darn decent portrayal so it's not as if I can go storming down Marvel Studios' doors with guns blazing and screaming for retribution. (Although I could if I wanted to.tongue)

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33253: May 9th 2015 at 5:29:41 PM

Sounds like Freeman is almost certainly going to be Ross at this point. I don't remember what the casting calls for Ross looked like though so I can't compare them.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33254: May 9th 2015 at 5:46:42 PM

I'd argue that making Steve Jewish defeats the point of the character. He's supposed to be the ideal Aryan superhuman that Hitler and the Nazis desperately wanted to create.
And I'd argue that the point of the character has been more than made, and that it's no longer applicable or relevant and hasn't been for decades. It's kind of silly to still be defining a character in relation to a real-life political party that's been gone for the better part of a century. It's time to move on.

I mean, I guess making Steve Jewish would also be defining him in relation to Nazis, but at least there's other potential narrative uses for it that are relevant today. Anti-semitism is still a thing. Nazis are mostly not.

edited 9th May '15 5:47:48 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33255: May 9th 2015 at 5:48:35 PM

It would retroactively apply to every comic about him against Nazis, though, so it's not as if it wouldn't affect that era at all.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33256: May 9th 2015 at 5:52:57 PM

[up]Well, yeah, but folks reading comics from the 40s would already know the original context, and folks reading in the 40s can't have their context affected unless someone invents time travel. And comics written now taking place in the 40s are still being written for the modern political climate so Nazis are irrelevant as a talking point. So I don't see the problem.

edited 9th May '15 5:54:17 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#33257: May 9th 2015 at 5:54:05 PM

Kevin Feige insists Pietro was Killed Off for Real and that there are no plans to bring him back.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#33258: May 9th 2015 at 5:56:06 PM

I'd wager that he'll make a temporary comeback as a hallucination in Scarlet Witch's next appearance, however.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33259: May 9th 2015 at 5:59:56 PM

About catholic characters, there is quite a few Catholics in Marvel comics, actually, not just Daredevil and Night crawler. First, there are multiple characters from classic catholic ethnicities/regions, such as Gambit and Banshee. But then there is Bruce Banner, who was apparently raised as catholic.

The thing is that Daredevil and Nightcrawler is not that they are catholic, but that they are more religious than the average. The go to church and they pray often, so their denomination is more apparent. Most characters are simply "generic Christians", and their specific denomination is not immediately obvious.

Btw, there is this site who list tons of comic characters by their supposed religion. It is not always precise, I think, but you can see the reasoning by clicking in the link on the religious column for every character.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#33260: May 9th 2015 at 6:00:21 PM

[up][up]That's definitely possible, or maybe just a more straightforward flashback.

I think the actor is under contract for at least two more films, and even if Marvel was already planning on killing him off when they cast the role, they would of put at least a few extra films in his contract just to have him on call for hypothetical dreams/visions/hallucinations/flashbacks.

edited 9th May '15 6:00:33 PM by Falrinn

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33262: May 9th 2015 at 6:04:02 PM

Speaking as someone who very much isn't, I think Steve being just like the Aryan ideal sends a stronger message than if he was one or more passing minorities, and there's value in showing the nobility of altruism and sticking up for the disenfranchised just because it's the right thing to do even if you can't identify with them directly, so long as care is taken not to go into Magical Negro territory.

Also, Steve Rogers is arguably the ultimate ally, and, contrary to the notion I've seen picking up steam around certain sites, having allies from privileged groups does have benefits. While it might be true for some individuals, and I don't think that alone makes Steve special, the idea that all allies are categorically motivated by Wanting a Prize for Basic Decency and should be ostracized is pretty counterproductive if you ask me.

edited 9th May '15 6:05:54 PM by AlleyOop

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33263: May 9th 2015 at 6:08:42 PM

I think Steve being just like the Aryan ideal sends a stronger message than if he was one or more passing minorities, and there's value in showing the nobility of altruism and sticking up for the disenfranchised just because it's the right thing to do even if you can't identify with them directly, so long as care is taken not to go into Magical Negro territory.
As the White Man's Burden trope illustrates, this is not an uncommon message. It is not one that needs to be taught more. Certainly it's not something you need to build an entire superhero around. It's one that presents the disenfranchised as unable to help themselves, or unworthy of telling stories about, in favor of talking about how awesome it is that some in the majority manage to lift up these poor helpless souls.

Also because Steve Rogers is arguably the ultimate ally, and, contrary to the notion I've seen picking up steam around certain sites, having allies from privileged groups is beneficial. While it might be true for some individuals, the idea that all allies are categorically motivated by Wanting a Prize for Basic Decency and should be ostracized is pretty counterproductive if you ask me.
Allies are absolutely beneficial! But they're also way overrepresented compared to the people they are aligned with.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33264: May 9th 2015 at 6:09:02 PM

[up][up][up]Jewish is not solely a religious category. It is also an ethnic one. There is non religious Jewish people so certainly are also non-Jewish Jewish people. For example, someone with a Jewish mother and a Catholic father could easily grow up as "Jewish Catholic".

Not entirely sure why that site would list anyone as such considering it is listing people by faith, but I noticed they listed Polaris as one and her only connection with Judaism is her father, Magneto, who haven't even raised her.

So I guess the site is being silly and treating Judaism, the religion, and and Jews, the ethnic group, as a single thing.

edited 9th May '15 6:09:59 PM by Heatth

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33265: May 9th 2015 at 6:12:03 PM

[up]But the list tends to designate when someone's half-and-half by just, y'know, saying that. If it had said "half Jewish half Catholic" I would've understood.

It's also the only Jewish category on the list, which is what worried me. I thought they thought Judiasm was a subset of Catholicism—y'know, Irish Catholic, Roman Catholic, Jewish Catholic.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33266: May 9th 2015 at 6:18:35 PM

I'm amazed the site has entries for Druze and Yazidis.

[up][up][up] Certainly not for new heroes, but that was the principle around which Steve Rogers was originally developed and which has been ingrained as core to his being. Much like Jimmy Olsen's nerdiness, Rhodey's military background, Falcon's social worker background, or Superman's being a Jewish allegory (but not a literal Jew) I think retconning it would fundamentally change who Cap is as a character, and therefore it's kind of unnecessary. I agree that Jewish Howling Commandoes would've been a good idea though.

edited 9th May '15 6:31:32 PM by AlleyOop

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33267: May 9th 2015 at 6:21:33 PM

[up][up]It is the only Jewish "subcategory" on the first list because it is a relatively large one (with six character), I guess. If you go down the main list you will see some other oddities such as "Jewish(half)", "Jewish(Agnostic)" and "Jewish; part Muslim", which with one of two characters listed.note 

edited 9th May '15 6:21:58 PM by Heatth

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33268: May 9th 2015 at 6:23:27 PM

oh hey so i missed how on the list of links at the top it said "jewish" literally right before "jewish catholic", i'm an idiot

...oh dear lord there's a thing called "captain israel and boy chick" [lol]

edited 9th May '15 6:24:20 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#33269: May 9th 2015 at 6:27:13 PM

[up]Ah, I see. Yeah, it would be really weird to list "Jewish Catholic" but not Jewish.tongue

Btw, that site is rather outdated. It is a nice list, but it is at last 3 years old as it list Carol Danvers as "Ms. Marvel". Also, it doesn't include Kamala Khan, which is sad.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#33270: May 9th 2015 at 6:34:30 PM

[up]x7 I would argue that the opposite extreme, where the problems of the disenfranchised are purely the responsibility of the disenfranchised to solve and those in power don't have to lift a finger, is a pretty terrible message to send as well. There's a reason the most successful civil rights movements were also very good at recruiting allies from those in power.

Disenfranchisement should be everyone's responsibility to solve. And if we want our fiction to reflect that, then singling out individual characters isn't the right approach. The right approach is to look at the big picture and shift the big picture in the direction we want to go.

edited 9th May '15 6:34:57 PM by Falrinn

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33271: May 9th 2015 at 6:41:15 PM

[up]How do we shift the big picture without, y'know, changing individual characters? Do we change vast swaths of characters at once instead?

Disenfranchisement is not any one person's problem to solve. It's the institutions. It's all well and good to have Cap or whoever as champion of the oppressed but he can't, like, beat up lawmakers until they stop regulating womens' bodies or putting spikes on park benches at night, or beat up CEOs until they start paying their minimum wage employees better and hiring more minorities.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33272: May 9th 2015 at 6:58:54 PM

I'd read those comics if he did though

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#33273: May 9th 2015 at 7:00:09 PM

[up][up]In this context the ideal solution is to bring in new characters (or place greater emphasis on previously unimportant characters) and their presences will change the big picture.

Basically the problem was never Captain America by himself, or Iron Man by himself, or Thor by himself, or Hawkeye by himself. The problem was that between the five original members of the Avengers only one of them wasn't a white dude. The Avenger's lineup at the end of Age of Ultron is much more diverse, and that wasn't achieved by rewriting existing characters.

If you are talking about disenfranchisement in the real world, then that's of course a more complex issue that can't be solved by punching. But our stories need not be literal, and sometimes that means a lot more problems are solved via punching.

edited 9th May '15 7:05:32 PM by Falrinn

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33274: May 9th 2015 at 7:07:58 PM

[up]The thing is, though, that the Marvel universe already has like fifty thousand characters. To get any degree of balance you've got to just keep throwing more and more on the pile and pray something sticks, which has been the de-facto strategy since the 80s and has barely left a dent. For every Kamila Khan there's like fifty X-Men whose biggest achievement was getting killed off in a Crisis Crossover.

At the end of AOU, we've gone from six white guys, a black guy, and a white woman to six white guys, two women, two black guys (maybe three depending on what Fury's up to), and a male-coded robot. More diverse? Yes. Even close to where things need to be, especially with Peter Quill and (eventually) Steven Strange and Scott Lang floating around being all white and male? Not even close. It's gonna take forever for even a single minority to equal the number of majority members at the rate we're going.

edited 9th May '15 7:15:18 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33275: May 9th 2015 at 7:14:47 PM

You just reminded me that the comics very briefly tried to play Vision as native american representation

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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