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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#32176: May 4th 2015 at 7:59:31 AM

Isn't that from a Latino Review rumor?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32178: May 4th 2015 at 8:11:36 AM

I don't really get the complaints about Black Widow being the Love Interest, largely because she wasn't. She was the Love Instigator. Widow had all the romantic agency in the subplot; it was happening as a consequence of her choices, and it progressed as a consequence of her choices. Banner's role in the possible romance was reduced to a simple Yes/No, while Widow drove the courtship.

It sucks that Banner ultimately selected No, but that's life. Widow saw what she wanted, reached for it, and got burned. Why blame her for trying?

edited 4th May '15 8:13:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#32179: May 4th 2015 at 8:14:25 AM

The best moment from the movie. [lol]

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#32180: May 4th 2015 at 8:25:56 AM

[up][up][up][up]Yes, but unless they have some very professional fan artists on staff, no, I doubt they mocked that up.

edited 4th May '15 8:26:10 AM by comicwriter

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32181: May 4th 2015 at 8:29:15 AM

[up][up][up]I think the comment about her being the "love interest" is because, even though she is the instigator, the focus is mostly on Banner. It is about how he reacts, how he is feeling. He was more of a focal character than Natasha was and that is what people are complaining, I think.

Personally, it didn't bother me too much because that wasn't all she was. And there were scenes that focused on her. I think it sucks the movie that, out of the "movie-less main characters"note  she was the neglected one but I hardly think her character was "ruined" or some non sense like that.

edited 4th May '15 8:29:27 AM by Heatth

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#32182: May 4th 2015 at 8:40:44 AM

I do agree that a longer scene between Laura and Widow would have been nice, and maybe a better framing for the can't have children thing. Laura asks if Nat's ever thought about it, Nat explains everything, then maybe Laura asks if she's tried adoption. Nat could even say that she did try, but she got turned down due to the courts deciding that her life is too unstable for a child.

Like Drake said, the storyline could have been much worse, and it was realistic, all things considered. I especially liked the part where she told Bruce "I adore you." Not "I love you," because she doesn't love him yet, at least not romantically.

While finding someone else to do the whole "taming the monster" thing might have been nice, Tony would have been the worst choice. We saw him attempt to talk the Hulk down. He promptly made him angrier by calling him Bruce Banner.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#32183: May 4th 2015 at 8:41:19 AM

I did not give a shit about the romance. It's just there to me.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#32184: May 4th 2015 at 8:50:29 AM

[up]Exactly. It added nothing to the plot. The parts which did matter, like the betrayal and what was done to Natasha could all have been done just as well without the awkwardly written romance in-between. It was just wasted time in a movie which didn't have any time to waste.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32185: May 4th 2015 at 8:51:31 AM

I did feel that she was a bit neglected, but that was a consequence of having three new characters without films to flesh them out plus the added focus on fleshing out Hawkeye - who sorely needed it, after having been narratively snubbed twiceLISTEN . The lack of much focus on Widow felt more like time constraint than "She's the love interest!"

I'll admit, I was concerned when she was abducted by Ultron that she was going to become the Damsel, but not only did she turn that to their advantage - her rescue was entirely the product of her own agency once again - but also twisted the romance arc by having her literally shove Banner into a pit to make him become the Hulk. This is the culminating moment of their romance arc; Banner wants to run away together, Widow wants to stay and fight together, and she overrules Banner's choice through physical force.

Banner wasn't the focal character. He was the reactive character. Widow made choices and Banner tried to keep up with them. Banner was the one who lacked agency, not Widow. The only choice in their relationship that Banner made without being prodded was ending it.

Widow was never The Chick. If anything, Banner was.

edited 4th May '15 8:56:38 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#32186: May 4th 2015 at 9:03:29 AM

Huh. Well put. And @dRoy, that was the greatest thing.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32187: May 4th 2015 at 9:08:11 AM

[up][up][up]Many things don't add to the plot and yet are good things. A movie that only goes from plot event to plot event is not as good as a movie that actually bother with characterization. I guess you can say it took too much time, but to say "it doesn't add to the plot" is simply not enough of an argument by itself. By that logic we should remove Hawkeye's family from the movie, which would be just plain terrible.

[up][up]I did feel Hulk was the focal character between the two, at last most of the time. Might be just my impression, but I believe there have been interviews in which Whedon himself said he decided to put more focus on Hulk and Hawkeye on this one.

Anyway, I don't really disagree with you otherwise. I frankly liked that subplot. If anything, I wanted more of it(without sacrificing anything else, of course). I did feel there was some Unfortunate Implication with the sole original female Avenger getting a romance arc, but only because she was the sole original female Avenger and still the most important female character in the MCU. If they had added more women sooner it would be a complete different story. There is also a problem in the fact her issues with the Red Room wasn't as immediately appearance as Hulk's with his rampage. I know it is there, but it feels the romance was her only subplot, which wasn't the case for anyone else.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#32188: May 4th 2015 at 9:11:25 AM

[up][up][up]I disagree. The whole arc was obviously written with Bruce in mind, to bring him at a point where he feels he has to leave the team, and it actually cheapened the points which were relevant to Natasha, like her past with the Red Room.

And like I said, for the betrayal the romance wasn't even necessary. Natasha could have shoved him without there being a romance beforehand. She could have created her own rescue without him being involved (and in fact, I am disappointed that she didn't talk at the very least circles around Ultron while she was there).

The whole point of the romance was to give Bruce a chance to mope around. It was a tired rehash of his romance with Betty, and that one at least made somewhat sense.

[up]Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to Natasha getting a romance, but it should be one which made sense for her and is about her first and foremost. In this movie was certainly not enough room to give her a decent one.

edited 4th May '15 9:14:03 AM by Swanpride

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32189: May 4th 2015 at 9:29:00 AM

[up]Eh, I disagree the romance "doesn't make sense". It never felt that way to me, even from Natasha's point of view. I felt they have a nice chemistry and all. I felt it would be nice if there was more time to develop but that is it. Also:

The whole point of the romance was to give Bruce a chance to mope around. It was a tired rehash of his romance with Betty, and that one at least made somewhat sense.

I strongly disagree this was the point of the romance. If anything, it was the opposite. The whole point was that Natasha wasn't Betty. She wasn't someone who Bruce needed to protect from himself. Natasha is actually someone who can understand what is to feel like a monster. When he run away at the end, it wasn't to protect her from him. If anything, it was to protect him from her.

That said, Bruce being all moppey because he is the Hulk does seem like a regression from what things were last movie. But that doesn't have anything to do with the romance

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#32190: May 4th 2015 at 9:51:43 AM

I had actually assumed that Hulk's hangup was about his condition possibly being hereditary. Lamarck Was Right gets a lot of pull in comics.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#32191: May 4th 2015 at 9:52:49 AM

It looks like Civil War will address why Iron Man was back in the suit despite the ending of IM 3, and that his inability to let go of the armor will be a plot point.

EDIT for some reason the link isn't working.

http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/wizard-world/Marvel_Studios_boss_Kevin_Feige_Ultron_Civil_War_Wizard_World.html

edited 4th May '15 9:56:32 AM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#32192: May 4th 2015 at 9:58:27 AM

For the record, I meant to say I was indifferent to the Widow/Hulk romance. I don't actually have a negative opinion on it.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32193: May 4th 2015 at 10:02:36 AM

[up][up][up]I thought that was the case toonote . And still think. What made you think it is not?

[up][up]The link is too long. Here an working one.

edited 4th May '15 10:02:51 AM by Heatth

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#32194: May 4th 2015 at 10:04:27 AM

[up][up]Eh, who cares, I want a movie about Cap, Bucky and maybe Black Widow. Tony's hang-ups are only interesting when they relate to Civil war.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32195: May 4th 2015 at 10:12:33 AM

I disagree. The whole arc was obviously written with Bruce in mind, to bring him at a point where he feels he has to leave the team, and it actually cheapened the points which were relevant to Natasha, like her past with the Red Room.

And like I said, for the betrayal the romance wasn't even necessary. Natasha could have shoved him without there being a romance beforehand. She could have created her own rescue without him being involved (and in fact, I am disappointed that she didn't talk at the very least circles around Ultron while she was there).

The whole point of the romance was to give Bruce a chance to mope around. It was a tired rehash of his romance with Betty, and that one at least made somewhat sense.

But it wasn't. The romance had nothing to do with Bruce leaving the team. Bruce left because of the rampage brought on by Wanda's mind-altering influence. As you said, the romance wasn't even necessary for Bruce's departure - because it had nothing to do with it, as he'd been trying to run ever since they got to Hawkeye's nest.

If the point of the romance was to give Bruce something to mope about, then they did a poor job of that because he never mopes about the romance. He mopes about the casual destruction that the Hulk wreaks whenever a Code Green is called in, because that's not the life he desires. The romance services both Bruce and Natasha by giving Nat an opportunity to show us a side of her we've never gotten to see before - building on her assertion in Winter Soldier that she's going to try and reinvent herself - while simultaneously giving Bruce something to do other than mope about how terrible his life is.

Bruce isn't upset because Nat gives him man-feels. He's upset because he has the Hulk hanging over his head, defining his entire existence for the rest of his life.

edited 4th May '15 10:13:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#32196: May 4th 2015 at 10:19:23 AM

Eh, who cares

Obviously I assume someone might or else I wouldn't have posted it.

[up][up][up]I assumed that was the case as well. I think there was a line in Incredible Hulk about him not wanting to risk sex for fear of Hulk-Outs as well but I may be remembering wrong.

edited 4th May '15 10:21:18 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#32197: May 4th 2015 at 10:25:50 AM

Considering that he stopped wearing the watch I am not sure of they choose just to ignore that aspect in future movies. In The Avengers it sounds like it was about anger again, not heartbeat. Or blood pressure. Or whatever.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#32198: May 4th 2015 at 10:40:34 AM

Or Scarlet mindfuckery

Does anybody know what the twins' plan was at the beginning of the movie?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#32199: May 4th 2015 at 10:41:51 AM

I don't think they had one. My guess is they were trying to fight the Avengers but broke off the attack when it became clear they were overwhelming the HYDRA goons.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#32200: May 4th 2015 at 10:46:02 AM

[up][up]I think Wanda just figured out Tony would do something stupid with the staff and decided to just wait and see him self destruct. It kinda worked.


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