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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32126: May 3rd 2015 at 7:09:53 PM

[up]She was. It's clear that's the intended meaning behind the line. Saying she thinks she's a monster because she can't have children is just a terrible misreading the same way people got mad about Thor immediately backpedaling when Natasha pointed out Loki killed people.

edited 3rd May '15 7:10:04 PM by Kostya

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#32127: May 3rd 2015 at 7:10:27 PM

[up][up][up] That was my interpretation of the line as well. She was a monster because of all the horrible things she did prior to joining SHIELD, something that was brought up in both the Avengers and Winter Soldier. The point about her being sterile was a separate point. Now it wasn't exactly something she was happy about, and I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to be less then thrilled at the idea of having the choice of whether or not to have children to be forever denied them, but it was still a separate point.

Having said that since it appears to be a common mistake, I can understand the argument that it could probably of been worded better.

edited 3rd May '15 7:11:14 PM by Falrinn

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#32128: May 3rd 2015 at 7:14:11 PM

Yeah, the whole "she says she's a monster because she's infertile" is a deliberate misinterpretation of the scene and it's getting old.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32129: May 3rd 2015 at 7:16:03 PM

[up][up]I'm not going to argue that the line couldn't have been handled better but I'm getting really annoyed with how many people are misinterpreting that line. I've seen several other sites bring it up too.

edited 3rd May '15 7:16:12 PM by Kostya

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32130: May 3rd 2015 at 7:17:21 PM

IIRC, her saying she considers herself a monster directly follows her explaining that Red Room cut her up and made her infertile as part of their graduation. Connecting the two is an easy interpretation to make given how those lines were actually delivered - I wouldn't even call it a misinterpretation (since she clearly means to include that as part of what she's talking about) as much as taking it strictly on face value.

In any case, my immediate take on the scene was that she considered herself a monster because of the horrible things the Red Room did to her to make her their prized assassin in general, which includes being made sterile and also includes killing folks. I do think that her having guilt over killing people (which she never actually stated, iirc - the implication that she has that in mind is largely limited to the clip they showed of her having to kill a person tied up) needed to have more prominence - especially given the start on that topic we got in Avengers 1 and Winter Soldier - and really what she was talking about in general needed more development, since she didn't get a lot of that in comparison to Bruce.

edited 3rd May '15 7:20:55 PM by KnownUnknown

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#32131: May 3rd 2015 at 7:19:12 PM

I can see how that scene could be misinterpreted as her saying that what makes her a "monster" is being sterile, but that's definitely not what she meant. The conversation could have been worded a little bit better, though, IMO.

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#32132: May 3rd 2015 at 7:20:06 PM

Yeah, in none of the movies have I actually felt like Natasha has any remorse over killing anyone. She just seems kinda...bored. But that could just be down to her being played by Scar Jo.

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Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#32133: May 3rd 2015 at 7:21:31 PM

Scarlett Johansson loves being Black Widow, so no, that's not it.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32134: May 3rd 2015 at 7:22:01 PM

[up][up]Really? Avengers and Winter Soldier made it pretty clear to me that she's not entirely proud of a lot of the stuff she did while working for the KGB.

edited 3rd May '15 7:22:08 PM by Kostya

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#32135: May 3rd 2015 at 7:27:06 PM

Anyone else thought the SNL video was hilarious? I know I did a double-take at seeing THE Black Widow suddenly being so peppy.

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#32136: May 3rd 2015 at 7:28:08 PM

no one in the theater but me laughing at how goofy it sounds whenever they use avenging as a verb.

Probably because "avenging" is, in fact, a verb. "Avenger" literally means "person who avenges".

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32137: May 3rd 2015 at 7:28:23 PM

[up]What SNL video?

edited 3rd May '15 7:28:43 PM by Kostya

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#32138: May 3rd 2015 at 7:28:33 PM

Would have been funnier if they had used Hulk in place of Ultron.

edited 3rd May '15 7:28:47 PM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32139: May 3rd 2015 at 7:28:41 PM

I think part of it is direction. She in general seems a lot more muted and... well... flat in Avengers, whereas she has a lot of nuance in Winter Soldier. I really felt how much having to be the kind of person who can't be trusted by the people around her to survive and succeed weighed on her there.

edited 3rd May '15 7:29:27 PM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#32140: May 3rd 2015 at 7:28:54 PM

[nja]

edited 3rd May '15 7:29:12 PM by Tuckerscreator

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#32141: May 3rd 2015 at 7:34:16 PM

[up][up]I don't think it was direction. Winter Soldier just plain gave her better material.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#32142: May 3rd 2015 at 7:34:34 PM

Part of it's just the fact that she's a soldier. When she called herself a monster, she was having a private conversation with someone she's willing to open up to emotionally. In every other situation we've seen her in, she's behaved like a professional because she's a goddamn professional.

In all three of her appearances since Avengers, Widow has consistently been The Atoner, but with enough discipline and self-control to not be walking around openly weeping about her tragic, tragic past. That didn't change here.

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InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#32143: May 3rd 2015 at 8:34:38 PM

I really didn't even like her flirting with Banner at the bar. I mean, maybe if she was flirting with everyone in a joking manner, but her just out right flirting with him... came out of nowhere.

I ALMOST want to say she wouldn't be the person to actually flirt like that with someone she's romantically interested in, but I'm not entirely sure.

I also didn't like how she plays The Love Interest to Banner rather than Banner playing the Love Interest to her.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#32144: May 3rd 2015 at 8:39:16 PM

They are...both love interests...to each other...

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#32145: May 3rd 2015 at 8:41:22 PM

I also didn't like how she plays The Love Interest to Banner rather than Banner playing the Love Interest to her.

That's an interesting point. The dynamic would feel very different if it were Banner trying to appeal to her instead of her trying to catch his eye. On one hand, it would be a ton of character development for him because it'd show he's stopped trying to flee relationships. On the other hand, it matters that it be shown that Nat is treating Banner differently from other guys.

Betty Ross is not in Age of Ultron because she turned into a vampire.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#32146: May 3rd 2015 at 8:44:28 PM

She's going to show up as a vampiric red she-hulk and fight Nat isn't she?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#32147: May 3rd 2015 at 8:52:14 PM

Re: "The second worst was Mrs. Hawkeye saying "You know I support your Avenging" and no one in the theater but me laughing at how goofy it sounds whenever they use avenging as a verb."

I brought that up many pages ago, and commented that Joss had gone into George Lucas territory with that line.

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#32148: May 3rd 2015 at 8:59:40 PM

Well, avenging is a legit verb though.

This isn't even a revengeance situation where its obscure.

The Avengers have been fighting Hydra. Who have done some sick shit. So they're avenging those wrongs. Avenging.

Its a group called Avengers and aside from assembling, they avenge.

Although the verb I'd use is Avengers avengering.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BBrown052 Since: May, 2012
#32149: May 3rd 2015 at 8:59:51 PM

[up]I can deal with all the goofy lines, but that one goes too far for me. It doesn't even matter if its a real word or not, it just sounds really dumb to use the teams name as a verb. Especially since they're not really avenging anything.

edited 3rd May '15 9:01:38 PM by BBrown052

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#32150: May 3rd 2015 at 9:03:38 PM

I didn't mind it so much, largely because everyone was making those kind of quips. But I agree that using it in general vernacular it's almost like the Merry Men song in Robin Hood: Men in Tights. Do the Avengers have a theme song they sing? "We are the Avengers, we go on avenging..."


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