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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I liked that take on Ultron (which I kind of expected given the casting of James Spader). I thought it was in keeping with this Ultron being in some ways "based" on Tony Stark. And I like how both he and Vision avert Tin Man in totally different ways (Ultron by being Faux Affably Evil; Vision by being subdued but understanding sarcasm/rhetorical language).
Whedon's Buffy Speak is hit or miss (I was groaning at some of those lines) but I did think at least most of them fit for Ultron. YMMV of course since Buffy Speak tends to be a Base Breaker.
Also, I wasn't a fan of how Cap's personality seemed to regress from everything he went through in The Winter Soldier.
And I hated the "Language!" Running Gag. Like, what was the point of it? Why was it necessary???? Does Whedon seriously want us to think Cap never swears? Hell, Cap says "Bastard" in the first Avengers movie, for crying out loud.
From what I've gathered, Thanos is about death and destruction. Even if he loses, he still wins.
Except Thanos has never really been about pointless death and destruction especially if he has larger goals in mind. The constant defeats are counterprotuctive either way because in addition to getting the stones further away the amount of death and destruction is minimized compared to what it could be. If Ronan had succeeded in destroying Xander it would have started another war costing millions if not billions of lives. Instead, war was averted and only a few died by comparision. Loki's invasion threatened to kill millions if not billions of humans. Instead only a few hundred in all likelyhood died.
So either way Thanos comes off as incomptent.
Thanos is going to achieve a Near-Villain Victory inevitably once Infinity War comes out. So it doesn't really matter if he's had some setbacks now; he's guaranteed to take a level in badass once the time comes for him to be the central villain.
So a theory from somebody I know about the Worthiness thing in the MCU:
It's measure for worthiness is actually self worth. It's a mind trick.
Back in Thor, Odin had just told his son he's unworthy. Despite his bravado when he was about to pick up the hammer, this still stuck with him. His Daddy issues made him question his self worth and he was doubting himself deep down, thus the hammer didn't move. When he nearly died defending Jane and his friends, he banished that doubt because in that moment, he knew what he needed to do. It wasn't just the willingness to sacrifice himself, but that moment of clarity as he lay dying that gave it back to him.
Now we come to the party scene in Avengers Age Of Ultron.
Tony Stark is, by his own admission a bundle of issues. This is a man with a shit load of guilt on his plate, who wants to fix his messes and protect the world. Hell, only days earlier, he'd had a vision of all his friends dead, and the Chitauri dancing on Earth's collective face due to the belief he wasn't doing anywhere near enough to help the planet. Of course he has self doubt, and of course he can't lift the hammer.
I can't quite put Rhodey's issues into words, but he likely is the same in some way.
Bruce.....well, 'nuff said.
Then comes Captain America. A life long soldier whether he wants it or not, Steve has always known what he wanted, but in this new world so different from the one he knows, of course he's a little more unsure. Less self doubt than Tony or Bruce, hence he's able to budge it at least a little.
Born into the world with a purpose. He knows who he is, and he know why he's here. He's about life, and Ultron is about death. They gotta throw down and settle that shit. Vision came into the world fully aware of who's ass his foot would have to go up.
And what happens? Handles the hammer like it's a feather. No doubts or issues of worthiness to slow him down.
Re-call Odin added the Worthiness clause into the hammer when he sent it and Thor to Earth. Re-call what happened again in Thor. The latter went and picked a fight because his dad was backing off. He gets called a Princess and a brawl ensues. He was trying to prove himself to his dad. It's totally logical that an aspect of the Worthiness test would be checking to see if the potential wielder has any doubts or fears that may cloud their judgement.
So what do you think?
One Strip! One Strip!I can see that. Rhodney's the only real issue, because his character isn't defined enough for it.
I wonder, though—would a sufficiently self-absorbed villain be able to wield it?
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Maybe he doesn't think he's worthy because he's Always Second Best to Tony and the other Avengers.
Ultron's Buffy Speak was fucking awesome. I loved every second of it.
Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.It makes sense. Remember the story he told to Tony and Thor. A great story to anyone else, but they didn't seem that impressed.
Re-call when he fought Tony in Iron Man 2. It's implied Tony threw the fight, and even while drunk (if he even was that drunk) he still could use it better than Rhodey (who to be fair, was using it for the first time).
One Strip! One Strip!Re: "Wait, is Age of Ultron really a Contested Sequel? Because I thought it was an improvement over the first one, except for the villain."
I'd like to say, here's two things that Age of Ultron did better at over the first film.
Now keep in mind, I think the first film was excellent, but here's two minor quibbles, that the sequel improved upon:
1. The first 30 minutes of The Avengers is mostly just about putting the team together, everyone meeting each other, first impressions, etc. Sure there's still the whole "hunting for Loki" thing, but I personally don't think the plot or the movie gains any real momentum until after Loki's been apprehended, and he starts manipulating everyone.
I kinda worried going into AOU, that the first part of the film would be about the team getting back together, and that would bog the film down, but thankfully, as soon as the film started, they were already together. So that definitely helped things, and they could get to the Ultron plot sooner.
2. Except for the first 30 minutes, and maybe the last 15 minutes of The Avengers, most of the film is essentially a Bottle Episode, taking place just on Fury's aircraft. So there is a sense of claustrophobia at times (it's not that noticeable due to the writing, the characters, etc. but on a repeat viewing it's kinda hard to not see). In AOU, we get several different locations and settings, which kinda kept things a little fresh.
Like creepy stories? Check out my book!I don't think it has anything to do with self-worth. Thor in the first film was so arrogant he thought he could just waltz in and pick up the hammer. He still did not nothing he had done anything wrong or there was a reason for daddy to banish him. And with Rhodes, I don't see him having any issues of self-doubt. And given some of the questionable things Odin has had to do during his rule for the peace I do think Mjolnir can tolerate a degree of "darkness" within its users.
On another note, did the Vision at all use his density powers to phase through anyone in this film? The only abilities I recall were flying, some sort of limited control over his own form to generate his cape, and strength along with an energy beam from the mind gem. Did he use his phasing powers at all?
It happened in the thick of battle but it did look like Vision phased his arms through an Ultron drone to rip it apart.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersSo I saw the film, entertaining but has significant flaws. Not all are the same flaws of the first one, some are new and some are improved. It's not strictly the "lacks the freshness of the first" argument but the movie just jumps into a massively convoluted story. Last we saw, the Avengers were scattered and doing their own thing. 30 seconds towards the beginning to "re-assemble" the team would have done a lot, but instead we open with the ass-kicking Epic Tracking Shot of the team and lose the build-up that would actually get us invested in the story. Other issues will be in bullet points:
- Jumps far too deep into the MCU world, many running plotlines are addressed and firmly NOT resolved by the end. The ending has a big enough threat but in terms of a massive, paradigm shifting event a lot of the movie feels like Breather Episode and it ends extremely upbeat.
- Pacing seems semi-okay at first but it actually quite bad. For example, once Ultron reveals his grand plan and the royal rumble with the clones begin, the "Alpha Ultron" (the full size, unique body that isn't just modified Iron Legion drones) targets Thor rather early in the fight and they crash in that bombed out church. At least ten minutes later they are still there and seems to be only ten seconds since we cut away from them. And then we go on to the Hold the Line Epic Tracking Shot that signals the end is approaching.
- Ultron is at most amusing. By himself he doesn't really do anything new with A.I. Is a Crapshoot. His sole danger comes from being software uploaded to a thousand bodies, the clones go down way too easy.
- Similarly, there is a distinctive lack of danger throughout the whole thing. Captain America without his shield was able to handle a protracted fight with the Alpha Ultron on top of the semi, half of it without his magic metal shield and even getting blasted in the chest a few times, and doesn't come out of it any worse for wear. Only Hawkeye and Widow show some signs of fatigue by the end.
- A lot of action, most of which is competently done, but nothing really memorable. It's in large part because Ultron was a pushover in one-on-one fights and the clones went down easy. Captain America can only hit things with his shield so many times, Thor his hammer, Widow her electric eskrima sticks, Hawkeye his arrows, Tony his repulsors. The best action scene was Hulkbuster vs. Hulk, because there was a sense of progression to the fight, with added desperation as every trick he was using was ineffective or neutralized.
- Humor was insistent, only adding to the lack of tension and creating a massively imbalanced tone. Tony would not stop quipping during the Hulkbuster fight, and there was a lot of comical, almost cartoony moves (the impact hammer fist, for one).
- Too much of the plot relies on Deus ex Machina and Lightning Can Do Anything kind of fake science. Literally, Tony is going through tons of calculations to figure out how to safely stop the doomsday situation Ultron created, and his brilliant solution came down to Thor hitting it with his hammer. Creating Vision, Thor's Hammer once more.
- The characters are, more or less, equally balanced in screen time but it is in almost every scene. We see every Avenger do something at the party, in the fight at the beginning, the ship belonging to the arms dealer, at Hawkeyes safe house, etc. Even Tony's nightmare has him look over every individual character as being dead. This makes the narrative stop in its place trying to make sure everyone is accounted for before moving on with the story.
The good stuff:
- Vision was excellent, the sequence after he awakens is probably the best scene of the movie. Paul Bettany was amazing in the role. He was calm, intelligent and wise but also somehow innocent and naive at the same time, "I was just born yesterday." His final conversation with Ultron was quite good.
- Wanda and Pietro has a nice arc overall, they are both fundamentally broken but their inevitable Heel–Face Turn has a nice subtext about the inherent morality in everyone. Pietro's death was okay, a decent enough heroic sacrifice but the situation was rather artificial.
- While I think the character balance shifted a little too much towards Hawkeye to make up for Avengers 1, he does feel a lot more human and thoughtful (rather than just smart and observant). He's a talented guy doing his job and keeps another life separate from that, and that makes him so much more grounded than the rest of the team.
Running down his actual feats, he saw the potential in Loki and provided him with an army and a Infinity Stone. Now the invasion fails, and Loki is arrested, but his decision to sponsor Loki ends up leading (indirectly) to Loki's escape and subsequent rulling of Asgard. Which means one of the most powerful alien worlds now has a Thanos-allied ruler.
His next action is to employ Ronan the Accuser and the Collector to do his bidding. Ronan ends up rebelling against him as does Gamora, and the Power Stone ends up faling in the wrong hands. The Aether though ends up falling directly into his hands, as the Collector is on his employ (or at least that's what the stinger of the dark world strongly implies).
In Age of Ultron he makes no move, but decides to interfere directly at the end.
So in summary The Avengers - Loss. Thor: The Dark World: double victory (gets the Aether and has Asgard under his influence). Guardians of the Galaxy: Loss.
Overall Thanos's M.O thus far is just employing and sponsoring people to do his bidding. It's those people who keep dropping the ball in several manners. He's not even really The Chessmaster thus far. He's closer to The Spymaster.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."Now the invasion fails, and Loki is arrested, but his decision to sponsor Loki ends up leading (indirectly) to Loki's escape and subsequent rulling of Asgard. Which means one of the most powerful alien worlds now has a Thanos-allied ruler.
For starters, unless Thanos can see the future he had no way of knowing this would happen. It doesn't do anything for him.
Second, I highly doubt Loki is still allied with Thanos. The Other made it clear what Thanos would do to him if Loki failed. Loki failed. Now that Loki is king of Asgard it is in his best interest to keep Asgard strong. Since Thanos did not extract Loki from Asgard's prison it isn't much of a stretch to think Asgard is too strong for Thanos to directly attack. So lose for Thanos.
His next action is to employ Ronan the Accuser and the Collector to do his bidding. Ronan ends up rebelling against him as does Gamora, and the Power Stone ends up faling in the wrong hands. The Aether though ends up falling directly into his hands, as the Collector is on his employ (or at least that's what the stinger of the dark world strongly implies).
There is ZERO evidence that The Collector works for Thanos. The stinger only had an imprisoned Howerd the Duck talking to The Collector. If anything, The Collector's efforts to obtain the Infinity Stones ruined Thanos' own plans since it gave Gamora an opportunity to betray him. The Colletor was only colleting the stones for himself because of his obession with collecting. Given how the Asgardians trust him with a single stone implies he is powerful enough that Thanos would have trouble taking it from him. Again, lose for Thanos.
In Age of Ultron he makes no move, but decides to interfere directly at the end.
Which only means the failings of his minsions forces him to get off of his chair and take action himself.
So in summary The Avengers - Loss. Thor: The Dark World: double victory (gets the Aether and has Asgard under his influence). Guardians of the Galaxy: Loss.
Since there is no evidence that the Collector or Loki work for Thanos and they have every reason not to I would say more Lose all the way around.
Overall Thanos's M.O thus far is just employing and sponsoring people to do his bidding. It's those people who keep dropping the ball in several manners. He's not even really The Chessmaster thus far. He's closer to The Spymaster.
Them dropping the ball especially since he trained Gamora and Nebula shows poor choice of minions on his part. He is poor spymaster.
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I see your point but I'd quibble on Loki being described as Thanos-aligned. I mean Thanos could get his compliance by sending him a message to the effect of "I'm on to you and You Have Failed Me. Do my bidding or else."
However, I don't see Loki going out of his way to help Thanos. Dark World is kind of ambiguous on this score. Although the Collector is implied to be working for Thanos, I would tend to think that Loki!Odin sent Sif to turn over philebotinium in order to keep it out of Thanos' hands (oops).
I agree except that I did think there was a suggestion in Dark World that the Collector was working for Thanos (since he seems so shady). That may have been dropped though as I didn't get that sense from 'Guardians''.
edited 3rd May '15 4:16:40 PM by Hodor2
I see your point but I'd quibble on Loki being described as Thanos-aligned. I mean Thanos could get his compliance by sending him a message to the effect of "I'm on to you and You Have Failed Me. Do my bidding or else."
But how would Thanos even know about Loki? As far as Asgard and the rest of the nine realms knows Loki is dead and Odin sits on the throne of Asgard. Thanos is far from omniscient. And Loki would be incredibly stupid to reveal himself to Thanos.
However, I don't see Loki going out of his way to help Thanos. Dark World is kind of ambiguous on this score. Although the Collector is implied to be working for Thanos, I would tend to think that Loki!Odin sent Sif to turn over philebotinium in order to keep it out of Thanos' hands (oops).
What evidence is there that the Collector is working for Thanos?
edited 3rd May '15 4:17:44 PM by seekquaze1
I don't know if Thanos knows Loki is pretending to be Odin, but if a film said something to the effect that "Thanos knows about the masquerade due to his Thanos powers", it would make perfect sense to me.
YMMV, but the stinger of Dark World seemed to heavily suggest that it was a bad idea for Sif and co. to turn over the stone to the Collector- and the natural assumption was that it was a bad idea because the Collector would immediately turn the stone over to Thanos.
Guardians seems to go against this though- although the Collector is a horrible person, he's not a Thanos-aligned horrible person.
edited 3rd May '15 4:20:57 PM by Hodor2
''YMMV, but the stinger of Dark World seemed to heavily suggest that it was a bad idea for Sif and co. to turn over the stone to the Collector- and the natural assumption was that it was a bad idea because the Collector would immediately turn the stone over to Thanos.
Guardians seems to go against this though- although the Collector is a horrible person, he's not a Thanos-aligned horrible person.''
Up until this point only two stones had been found. The probably thought the Collector could be trusted to keep it safe and may have thought he had the good sense not to collect the others. The stinger left me with the feeling that he wanted all of the stones to complete his collection, but I never got the feeling he was working for Thanos.
edited 3rd May '15 4:26:21 PM by seekquaze1
Thanos has had a pretty poor showing so far
He's pretty lackadaisical about the whole thing really
Its going to be no surprise when he roflstomps the opposition in Infinity War though.
Its going to be like 'well i guess i'd better stop quarter assing this' and then get all the stones
Forever liveblogging the AvengersThanos seems to be a prime example of Orcus on His Throne although AOU seems to have snapped him out of this.

Ultron talking like a Buffy character was my favourite part about him! It's such a cool juxtaposition. You'd expect the evil robot overlord to have a booming voice and take everything seriously. He's basically Shale but actually evil, and not just evil towards pigeons. And it goes against everything the initial trailers made it seem like he'd be.
Plus, from an in-universe perspective it also makes sense- he was created in some capacity by Tony.
edited 3rd May '15 3:14:12 PM by Mukora
"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."