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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#31926: May 2nd 2015 at 4:59:07 PM

Who in Stark's life was named Friday?

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#31927: May 2nd 2015 at 5:02:11 PM

No, they don't want the guy who directed and wrote Fright Night. There's just another 18 year old actor who just happened to have the same name.

...Unless you already knew that and were just joking, in which case, sorry about that.

Yeah, was joking, sorry for the confusion.

[up]Isn't that his VI after JARVIS?

edited 2nd May '15 5:02:47 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#31929: May 2nd 2015 at 5:37:37 PM

Saw AOU today. Overall, it was a highly enjoyable film, though not as good as WS and GOTG. Some of the constant one-liners got a bit tiresome, the Hulk and Black Widow romance felt a bit rushed, and the end battle I also felt dragged on a bit too long. Despite all that though, still a really fun movie, and definitely worth more than just a mere 75% RT score (methinks that the critics just feel that the oversaturation of comic book films that are more committee made than director made is hurting the art of cinema or something).

Now I can't wait for Ant Man to come out. I know a lot of people think that it won't be good because of Edgar Wright leaving, but I still think it'll be solid.

On that note, it would appear that many assume that Wright leaving because of Marvel wanting changes to his script shows how constraining the atmosphere is, and that it is all about what the execs want, and fails to allow directors to have their own voice. I see it differently. Film is after all a collaborative medium (which I'm not quite sure critics who are in love with the auteur way of filmmaking get), and while the director should have control over his project, they also need to be open to suggestions from the whole team, and yes, that includes the executives as well.

Consider that before Ant Man, Wright got almost full control over all his films, and this was the one time in which he got some people asking him to modify his script. Was he angry because of Executive Meddling, or was mad because he was denied Protection from Editors? Marvel was with him every step of the way, and didn't rush him in the ten years he spent sitting on the project, and the one time they ask for him to modify it to fit into the MCU, he leaves.

What say you guys?

edited 2nd May '15 5:37:57 PM by LDragon2

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31930: May 2nd 2015 at 5:49:07 PM

Hmmm.

You may be on to something there.

One Strip! One Strip!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#31931: May 2nd 2015 at 5:55:50 PM

I don't know. There does seem to be some room for varying tones. Winter Soldier felt different from the rest of the MCU - less light and meaningless, not focused on a manchild protagonist who needs to learn to grow the hell up, a plot that's more unpredictable, and more examination of present-day issues.

On the other hand, Age of Ultron was, I think, seriously harmed by the desires of the studio competing against those of the director, forcing Joss to shoehorn in more stuff relating to Infinity War, with the result of the movie feeling overloaded. It might still have been too full even if it just focused on Ultron and the twins, but the addition of the Infinity Stone stuff certainly pushed it over the edge. And the need for plots focused on "villain gets Infinity Stone MacGuffin, destroys world with it" was also a contributor to the uncreative plots and flat villains of Thor The Dark World and Guardians Of The Galaxy.

There are also issues with characterization across movies - in particular, Widow is a completely different person in each movie she's in (with Joss's and the brothers Russo having particularly different takes on her), and Cap has the same issues between Whedon and the Russos to a lesser degree. But forcing consistent characterization would mean Marvel executives deciding the characters' personalities by fiat, rather than having it be an artistic decision by writers and directors, which would be a step in the wrong direction.

edited 2nd May '15 5:57:16 PM by Galadriel

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#31932: May 2nd 2015 at 5:56:54 PM

I kind of felt like Black Widow-Hulk was out of nowhere... This was the woman who said love was for children in Winter Soldier and that running off into the sunset doesn't happen... Then she tries to go for exactly that in Ultron???

I'm not saying it could never work, but I feel like that was so OOC and forced and I didn't buy it at all. Didn't really feel there was much chemistry either. And I kind of liked them as really good friends the same way I liked Steve and Black Widow as friends.

And I thought there were bigger plotlines to touch on with her too; namely how her Red File got released to the world and we really don't get much follow up to that plotline her and her character development/arc for the film is 'Love Interest'.

Just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31933: May 2nd 2015 at 5:58:28 PM

Man, the only thing I want out of a superhero movie is for it to be light and meaningless.

Winter Soldier was fine because it still had moments of lightheartedness, but something like Daredevil is not something I want any more of. Even Winter Soldier feels like it has a tone that's only good once in a while.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31934: May 2nd 2015 at 6:02:02 PM

I have to wonder how much of the plot about Ultron being created by the Mind Stone was Joss and how much was editorial. Because while that was something not in the comics and created exclusively for the film, Whedon has said repeatedly that he wanted to make sure there was some sort of consistency between the two Avengers movies. So while the actual set up for Infinity War was likely editorial, I feel at least the parts about the scepter and HYDRA using leftover Chitauri tech made sense from a storytelling standpoint.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31935: May 2nd 2015 at 6:03:30 PM

Daredevil's great though.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31936: May 2nd 2015 at 6:04:32 PM

I'm sure it's well-written, but it's not something I need or want out of a superhero story. Or any story, honestly. I'm so tired of grim grittiness.

When I think superhero I think the cartoons I watched as a kid, and that's basically what I want these movies to be.

edited 2nd May '15 6:05:09 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31937: May 2nd 2015 at 6:08:16 PM

Fair enough. You saw GOTG, yeah?

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31938: May 2nd 2015 at 6:10:39 PM

Totally. It's my favourite movie in the MCU

That's not a good exemplar of what I want most of the MCU to be, though. It skews too far towards silly. Honestly, I think Age of Ultron probably captures, tonally, what I want most out of a superhero movie. A villain that's snarky and smug about everything (but doesn't feel like the writers love him way more than they should, like Loki), and a whole bunch of crazy people with powers bantering with each other while they beat up evil robots. That's great.

Or, if you want to go outside the MCU, something like The Spectacular Spiderman is good. Or, and this is a strange one, Power Rangers RPM.

edited 2nd May '15 6:18:05 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#31939: May 2nd 2015 at 6:18:57 PM

Man, Loki is overrated as all hell.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#31940: May 2nd 2015 at 6:40:37 PM

Different tastes. I like my action movies to have something in the way of themes and ideas to think about, in addition to interesting concepts and strong action sequences. Inception, Looper, the Hunger Games films, Chronicle, Winter Soldier, V for Vendetta, Star Wars, District 9, several of the X-Men films...they're all good movies because they have something in the way of brains or heart or creativity in addition to the action. It's not about being "dark and gritty", it's about wanting the action to mean something emotionally or politically or philosophically, and not only be there for its own sake.

edited 2nd May '15 6:41:56 PM by Galadriel

DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#31941: May 2nd 2015 at 6:41:44 PM

I saw Age of Ultron today, and I really liked it. Hawkeye's lines were awesome, and I liked Scarlet Witch more than I thought I would. I thought the Widow/Hulk romance completely came out of nowhere, though. It didn't make a lot of sense. The Vision was pretty cool, too, and also rather OP with the Mind Gem in him. I was pretty fond of his "Well, I was born yesterday" line.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31942: May 2nd 2015 at 6:43:41 PM

I think generally there should be a variety of tones. It's when everything feels the same that I feel there's a problem.

For instance there was a site that kept mocking Daredevil before it was out (and then promptly gave it a glowing review when it was released) on the grounds that "When they finally hit it out of the park with GOTG, why would they go back to this grim bullshit?!" as if every single franchise in the MCU needs to have the exact same tone.

Daredevil is not Chris Pratt's Star-Lord and the Avengers aren't Daredevil.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31943: May 2nd 2015 at 6:45:00 PM

[up]x2 I wouldn't say any of the movies I like lack "heart" or "creativity." Maybe brains, but then, I lack brains too, so that's probably why that's the way it is.

When I say I don't like Dark and Gritty I mean stuff like the Nolan Batman films, or Man of Steel, or Daredevil, like I said. I don't like something that mires itself in "adult" themes like torture and whatever the hell Heath Ledger's Joker was supposed to be, or Superman just letting a bunch of people die. I generally like my media to be optimistic. I want it to bring me up, not down.

And that's not to say that it can't be emotional. The Walking Dead Game does a great job of being emotional and tense, but never making me feel like I have no reason to care about anything that's happening.

edited 2nd May '15 6:47:22 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#31944: May 2nd 2015 at 6:48:20 PM

I didn't like Man of Steel, liked Batman Begins and The Dark Knight fairly well, and thought Daredevil had a mix of good elements (Fisk may be Marvel's best villain yet) and bad elements (rampant use of torture and treatment of it as effective, even though Matt's enhanced perceptions make him ideally suited to questioning and getting information out of people without punching them, stabbing them, and dropping them off rooftops). I generally like Game Of Thrones. I also like optimistic stuff at the opposite end of the spectrum, like Star Trek The Next Generation.

I neither like nor dislike "dark" movies and shows, I just want them to be done well. Man Of Steel wasn't bad just because it was "dark", it was bad because Superman's characterization was inconsistent and didn't show how his experiences would lead to him being a hero; because the action scenes were tedious and repetitive; because the characters were unengaging.

edited 2nd May '15 6:52:28 PM by Galadriel

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#31945: May 2nd 2015 at 6:51:51 PM

Agreed. Sometimes there needs to be a darker take if it means they can discuss a theme they wouldn't be able to in a lighter film.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31946: May 2nd 2015 at 6:52:54 PM

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of anything about Game of Thrones.

I like Telltale's adventure game take on it, but anything else? Nah.

[up] I never said these things shouldn't exist. I just don't like them.

edited 2nd May '15 6:53:31 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#31947: May 2nd 2015 at 6:55:07 PM

I don't see where gritty has to mean it can't be ultimately optimistic.

Daredevil's first season, ultimately, ends on a fairly happy note. There's loss, there's sacrifice, and the issues he tackles are more heavily grounded in reality. But that's the kind of hero he is. Not every superhero is the colorful caped crusader type, and to dismiss grim and gritty on the basis that it's grim and gritty is, I think, as closed-minded as dismissing Guardians of the Galaxy because it's so far in the opposite direction.

Some stories simply can't be cartoonish and silly, or to make them so would make them terrible and stupid. What's wrong with having to actually think about things like the line between hero and villain, or consider the genuine ramifications of criminal activity and its less "fun cartoon-supervillain" side?

Thought Man of Steel was awful, mind, but the Dark Knight and the Daredevil series are amazing because they're applying it to the proper characters.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#31948: May 2nd 2015 at 6:56:05 PM

[up][up]

It and The Walking Dead seem to be competing for which one can be darkest, most violent, most depressing, and kill off the most characters, so I'm surprised you like the latter. GOT certainly isn't to everyone's tastes.

edited 2nd May '15 6:56:17 PM by Galadriel

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#31949: May 2nd 2015 at 6:56:27 PM

[up]x2 Pretty sure I can dismiss whatever I want to dismiss. If I don't like something, I don't have to partake in it just because it has some abstract "value" or a good reason to exist.

And you can tell me that Daredevil ends on a positive note, but that doesn't change that by the third episode I was already so tired and depressed by it that I didn't want to watch anymore to get to that point.

[up] I like Telltale's game. I'm not a big fan of the show or the comics any more.

edited 2nd May '15 7:01:32 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#31950: May 2nd 2015 at 7:15:17 PM

This was the woman who said love was for children in Winter Soldier and that running off into the sunset doesn't happen.

No, Natasha said "Love is for children" in The Avengers. And she said it when she was talking to Loki and misleading him in order to get him to reveal her plan.

In Winter Soldier, she blew all of her covers and then said that she had to figure out who she was without them.

I figure that her attraction to Bruce Banner is her attempt to figure out who she really is. And it's not out of nowhere - remember in the first Avengers, she's the one who recruits Bruce and then, at the end, when he shows up and says, "Well, this looks horrible." And she says, "I've seen worse. [...] We need worse." She basically says that they need the Hulk, even though she was traumatized by him earlier.

So yeah, I get where the romance angle comes it. Could have been handled a bit better, but I can still see it.


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