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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Just saw the film. Very good movie. I don't have many issues with the movie other than the "Whedonisms". I do feel that a director's cut of the movie would be better because some scenes weren't very developed.
I thought all the characters had time to shine, and were done very well. Love the group dynamic, and I love the fact that the MCU is in full effect with showcasing War Machine (finally) and Falcon as well, leading up to the New Avengers at the end. Everyone stood out, even Thor who was kind of shafted in the last movie, and of course Hawkeye.
Thought the twins were good, loved the nod to the comics of them starting off bad guys and eventually joining the team.
I really liked Ultron. Little disappointed in Ultron's goofiness in certain scenes otherwise he was pretty menacing although he was dispatch rather easily despite the vibranium upgrade.
Basically action scenes were great, and I appreciate lots of scenes focused on just saving people. I noticed the obvious "one shotter" at the beginning of the film, which was cool, but it loses a bit of its appeal since it's all CG. I loved all the "combo" moves though, particularly between Thor and Cap. Classic. Gotta throw in more of those in general, and get the Hulk in there.
The final act might be a bit plodding, but I still thought it worked. Hawkeye really shined, which justified his countdown of death fakeout. Don't mind too much that Quicksilver bought it, as fun as he was, because Wanda has more potential as an Avenger.
I thought the buildups to Phase 3 were good without overtaking the plot. I can definitely see where Ragnarok is going to happen with Thor, and the split between Tony and Steve felt natural without sacrificing either character. I think if you know going in that Civil War is happening that might impede your ability to take it in, but it didn't for me.
I thought the Vision was amazing. I loved how he looked on screen and was acted perfectly. They could not have done any better, and he just dazzled me whenever he showed up.
edited 1st May '15 9:13:01 PM by VeryMelon
I definitely agree it's not as good as the original, which is impressive because I still felt it was great.
There wasn't really anything I disliked, but the first movie was a really great meal that you're having for the first time so it's a great first experience, while the second movie is the same thing. It's still a good meal, but now that you've had it before, it's lost that original magic, and has to sail on it's own merits.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
I love the title.
Btw, I feel I am the only one who genuinely liked the Bruce/Natasha romance. I mean, not the best romance in the world, but I frankly found it really sweet, and had me wishing they would star a movie together or something. I understand why people have some problems with it, there is at last some contextual Unfortunate Implications in there, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
As for "coming out of nowhere", it is kinda true, but they had been working together for at last one year, right? That should be enough time for something to happen. I like when stuff keep moving between movies. It feels artificial when everything goes on pause as soon as the movie end, to just start moving again in the next one.
Taken on their own the scenes can be very sweet; Nat pretending to be a down-on-her luck barmaid was adorable. But the scenes don't really connect to the rest of the movie very well; the plot sorta keeps going around them rather than through them. They basically just recap the same "Hulk is a monster!" "No he's not!" arc over and over again. At least it resulted in something more permanent at the end, though.
This movie also makes a point of seeming as though it starts just a little after the Winter Soldier ended, hence why it feels like there was little time in between. I might have been more okay with it had in been depicted as budding and developing, perhaps. It almost felt that way at the party scene, where Bruce seems surprised to hear that Nat is genuinely interested in him.
And glad you liked the title!
edited 1st May '15 10:04:00 PM by Tuckerscreator
I don't really disagree with any of that. I even add it is a full on Unfortunate Implication that the main female Avenger's subplot is a romance arc. And a romance arc that isn't even focused on her at thatnote .
I still liked it, though. And I think some of it s detractors blew it way out of proportion. Natasha didn't stop being a good character in the movie and she wasn't reduced to a passive love interest. She still did plenty cool stuff unrelated to Banner. In a vacuum, it was a sweet romance subplot that in no way undermine any of the characters. Too bad the outer context makes it seems so much worse than it actually was. I wish Whedon had had more care writing this.
edited 1st May '15 9:45:20 PM by Heatth
I take it that Bucky Barnes is starting to become the Sacchin of the MCU now, given all the jokes/annoyed venting about how the movies keep avoiding him. Oh, and in that other way too if you're so inclined.
edited 1st May '15 10:06:09 PM by AlleyOop
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It have been what, 3 or 4 years in story since Incredible Hulk? We have had no indication he kept contact, I believe. I think they just drifted apart, again. Bruce probably didn't want to keep involving her with his problem and have already moved on. I don't think it is something that demanded an explicit mention.
edited 1st May '15 9:51:33 PM by Heatth
Just got back from seeing it. It was good. I don't know if I'd say it was as good as GOTG, or as good as the first Avengers, but it was still really good.
The entire audience had collective gasps and "Oh, shit!"s when Vision casually handed Mjolnir to Thor.
Was sorta not expecting them to kill off Quicksilver just after introducing him.
I agree that the Hulk/Widow romance just feels awkward and out of place, and drags the film down.
Ultron and Vision were both great as characters. Close to human, but just... different. And they know it. Vision accepts this and still fights for them, while with Ultron I got the impression part of his rage was fueled by being an outcast from the moment of his creation.
edited 1st May '15 10:19:53 PM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!So. This movie's amazing. Vision's amazing. Quicksilver was amazing. Fuck you, Joss Whedon. Cheap, character-killing-for-shallow-emotional-response whore.
My various fanfics.I quite liked the movie.
Twas good.
And in fairness, its not like Pietro ever stays on the Avengers for long. And in a sense its wise not to try too hard to compete with Fox's Quicksilver. And with Hawkeye death watch red herring... well, it could have been worse.
Stinger got a laugh out of me. oh Thanos you lazy jerk. Don't pretend this isn't what you'd prefer.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersI saw it a couple of days ago and... it's good. I really like it. It's not as good as Avengers 1, mostly because while this movie does a lot and covers a lot of ground, the end result is very disjointed. But it's still a very enjoyable, exciting movie, and it honestly could've been a lot worse.
The movie has a lighter, more actiony tone, which isn't in itself an actual problem: it accomplishes this a lot better than both Avengers 1 and Iron Man 2, and felt like it was actually committing to its humor and tone rather than inserting it awkwardly. On the other hand, while that's not an issue in itself, it does make the actual issues the move has even worse.
The biggest problem being the plot: while the movie does commit to its tone, it doesn't do the same with its characters and its plot developments. Lots of things - far more than there should be - are left unexplained or just explained enough that the plot can function but not nearly enough to. Thankfully this isn't like Iron Man 3, where plot development things in the last half essentially stopped, leaving the characters undeveloped and flat and plot developments out of nowhere - Ultron 2 does set up what happens decently enough, it's just that things are considered fully established almost immediately after being introduced, and the result is a huge rush - very little is given a decent amount of weight, and this feels more like the movie is constantly introducing things, every other scene, and taking for granted that they're established enough to work. The pacing is bad, basically, and it makes the movie as a whole suffer. In a large part because it makes the characters, while still obviously well conceived, act in ways that often appears inconsistent and strange (and in this regard, the humor does not help).
Ultron himself gets hit the worst with this. It's never actually clear what his "mission" is supposed to be, or why exactly he wants to destroy the Avengers. It's hinted at, certainly - the flash of clips from the beginning at least lays credence to his "you're all monsters" bit, but whatever he thinks the Avengers can't do that he must isn't ever introduced, nor what he aims to help humanity evolve into. The characters talk about it quite a bit as if it is, but it isn't. He gives vague speeches and then he then spends the movie doing... stuff. Offscreen, mostly. Later, we see he plans to blow up the earth, and he still talking about how its necessary but he doesn't say how or why, just that it is. His plan is totally incoherent as a result, - I'm was, admittedly, left wondering whether the inconsistency was intentional, since Ultron is as childish as he is crazy, but it still leaves him without a lot of substance and it's not particularly good writing/directing.
It does not help that with the exception of the scene where he's first activated, which is actually my favorite scene in the movie - seriously, that scene with its very limited dialogue tells so much more about Ultron as a character than the rest of the movie - Ultron doesn't really have much of a middle ground between childish and omnicidal. He's either being wacky or he's being threatening, and it's rare that he shows an actual passion for what he's doing, or the pain that Vision claims he's feeling. That bit in the beginning, where he's flashing through images of the world and all he says is "oh... oh no..." there should've been more of that. More of him reacting to the world, rather than talking about it.
I feel like there should've been more shades of him - a friend of mine put it best, that he should've been more like Tony. Not just Tony's humor, but Tony's obsession as well - give him a scene like in Iron Man 3, where Pepper walks in on Tony and he tells her who he's become and why.
That said, I loved how funny he was at times. His gloating and reactions to being defeated, especially.
There are some other things: the twins supposedly have an animosity with Stark, but don't ever get any real face time with him to hash it out (instead they tell it to other people, then feel regret for it afterwards), and Tony himself never even finds out that Witch is behind his recent bout of obsession. Thor's actions are very important to the events of the movie, yet most of them happen offscreen, and with the lack of explanation tend to come out of nowhere. Vision lifting the hammer, while awesome, felt like a cheap way to cut short the characters' distrust of him.
Also, while the humor is great, the universal nature of it is kind of a shame. HYDRA comes off looking like a total joke. Dramatic scenes generally have the tension lifted out of them, and usually it. And sometimes it feels like the humor is directed at fans too much, if that makes any sense. Like they only work if you're already aware of what very specific thing the joke is referencing and also has the reaction the joke is trying to elicit. A lot of the humor surrounding Hawkeye is like that, and quite a bit of it runs on the expectation of Genre Savvy to an extent that I figured it would probably feel a lot less meaningful if I weren't. Some of the plot is also like that, like Ultron's dislike for the Avengers, as noted above - while it's not really explained in the movie, the audience is supposedly expected to assume he has made certain conclusions due to earlier movies, and then just guess at what he's getting at as a result - though in that case they leave far too much for assumption.
The "lighthearted" nature of the plot, however, is done very well. It's the movie's best point. It really does feel like a extended episode of a comic book show, or a more actiony comic - which is an issue for pacing, but not for tone. Again, this movie really goes full force and unabashed with what kind of story its telling, and it's another thing I noticed it did a hell of a lot better than Iron Man 3. The plot, while choppy, is specifically constructed to accommodate that kind of tone, and in that regard it really works.
I kept wondering whether they forgot about Betty Ross. I also feel like, much like Winter Soldier, the plot wish Natasha and Bruce would've been more meaningful in regards to them as having similar places in the world if . And if Natasha's thing had emphasized Natasha's being regretful of being a killer a bit more. Also, just like Avengers 1, this movie made me really want them to follow up with a solo Hulk movie. But now I have the "benefit" of knowing that there's distribution issues that prevent that from happening, which makes me sad...
And, Thor never tells Ultron he would have words with him, which is an utter travesty that makes this the worst MCU film ever. Just kidding, but still. On a totally unrelated note, I want Dr. Cho to appear as a supporting character throughout Phase 3, since it's nice to have a medic no matter who the hero is, and her role is so accessible. One of the few "universe" things the MCU has yet to fully embrace is characters that appear throughout the verse but not specifically attached to one hero or an ensemble, as well as villains who do the same. Plus, y'know, Amadeus.
As a last bit: Vision is so screwed. He's like, deader than dead. At least Thanos doesn't have to destroy Xandar or Asgard to get the gems there. I mean, he will, certainly, but it's not necessarily required. The Mind Gem is incorporated into Vision's very being, so Thanos has a perfect excuse to rip him to shreds. Not that he wouldn't anyway.
In short, the movie has a big issue with pacing, which results in issues with consistency, plot development and a bit of Show, Don't Tell - but it's still a really, really awesome ride.
edited 1st May '15 10:59:17 PM by KnownUnknown
To address certain things:
- Black Widow says she's infertile while talking to Bruce Banner in Clint's farmhouse. She specifically says that in the Red Room, the last thing they did to turn you into an assassin was sterilize you so that there wouldn't be anything that was more important than the mission (i.e. children).
- It was never hinted that Black Widow and Hawkeye were ever an item - it was hinted that they were friends and Widow said that she owed Hawkeye a debt (for not killing her when he could and for getting her to join SHIELD).
- I thought it was fairly obvious what Ultron's plan was: he wants the human race to evolve and become stronger, so he was going to create an extinction level event and anyone survivors would be stronger because of it. He even said when he had Black Widow captured, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." He was just applying that to the human race. But then, like Scarlet Witch said, he couldn't distinguish between "saving" the world and "destroying" the world.
- I also love how certain characters who we think will die don't. Helen Cho - dead in the comics - is almost certainly cannon fodder for Ultron and even takes a hit from him. But she's still alive at the end! And then Hawkeye, pregnant wife and two kids, he even looks at a picture of them, so we KNOW he's a goner...but nope!
edited 1st May '15 11:00:12 PM by alliterator
Ultron's plan seemed pretty clear judging by the 'you want to protect the world but you don't want it to change.'
He was going to wipe out humanity with his colony raise/drop and then replace it with the Vision. Tony's paranoia about what could possibly be waiting out in space basically got magnified and probably twisted with Bruce's negativity into fatalism that the human race was just too sucky to live.
He lied about his motives to the twins because he liked having them around to snark at but by copying his mind into the bio-mechanical Vision brain, Wanda could suss out his schemes.
At least that's what I got out of it.
What I don't understand is what Wanda's plan was initially.
To add to that, I think when most everyone was dead he was going to offer the survivors cyber-augments? Based on his conversation with Pietro about those who refuse to evolve
edited 1st May '15 11:06:15 PM by Bocaj
Forever liveblogging the AvengersIt's not the basics of the plan itself that are the issue - again, the movie tends to explain stuff, but only as much as it allows the film to function - it's the extremely incoherent way its presented.
A big part of it is that we're only given the details of the plan after Ultron has begun a villainous breakdown and has decided to lay waste to humanity rather than make it evolve - his comment to Widow, for example, was explicitly made after that point, while he's in the throes of a Fisk or Injustice-Superman level vendetta against the world. Which muddles the question: was the cataclysm event his way of punishing a world he feels didn't understand him, or was that the plan all along? - the way the movie actually presents these events, it could easily be both, and the main thing going for it being the latter is that if it were the former, there'd be a big gaping hole in the plot. Iron Man 3 had a similar problem - in the end, certain plot points were only addressed by audience assumption, rather than audience assumption supplementing the plot itself.
Ultron himself is wildly incoherent, so his plot is wildly incoherent, and the issue more or less lies with the way he as a character isn't given a lot of opportunity to show substance - it's mostly snark or intimidation.
edited 1st May '15 11:08:36 PM by KnownUnknown
I think Ultron being a bit batty is kind of the point. He seems to be trying to balance his "logical programming" of protecting humanity with his human emotions of hatred and anger, leading to a schizophrenic evil plan.
"All you Fascists bound to lose."In the climax Hulk reaches a heretofore unrealized level of strength and punches Ultron into the Earth, splitting it into two pieces. The Stinger shows Cap on one side and Iron Man on the other side, thus setting up Civil War.
edited 1st May '15 11:12:12 PM by KnownUnknown
Cheap, character-killing-for-shallow-emotional-response whore.
Well, that's just silly. I mean, it's not like Whedon kills only for an emotional response. He also kills to show just how serious the situation is. And also to show that nobody is safe (even though we know none of the main Avengers are going to die). There has to be some death or else it'll be "Whelp, we fought this army of killer robots, but nobody died, so we're all good!"
I think that's why people were all misinterpreting Whedon's words when he said he was disappointed that Coulson was resurrected. He wasn't disappointed in the actual resurrection — hell, Whedon himself did that — he was disappointed that the death had no "oomf" in the movie anymore because you know he isn't dead for long. If you know Coulson is dead for long, that scene in the movie loses part of its meaning.
Quicksilver's death, on the other hand, shows how much he grew and wanted to help others, while also keeping that same snarky arrogance in his first appearance. His first and last line is genius: "You didn't see that coming?"
While I thought Quicksilver's death was really well done, I do wish he had spent some of the time dropping anvil-sized Fauxshadowing that Hawkeye was going to die instead giving Quicksilver a bit more screentime. What little characterization they gave the twins after they first joined Ultron was largely given to Witch instead, with Quicksilver mostly supporting her.
edited 1st May '15 11:15:15 PM by KnownUnknown

Alright. Just got back from seeing it. Overall, it's miles better than the first Avengers due to the fact that it has a plot, and a fairly interesting one at that.
Spoiler time, though not super-spoilery stuff - or anything someone else has already spoiler'd.
Hawkeye got some well-deserved attention (though I enjoyed the fact that they were Leaning on the Fourth Wall with his presence was constantly questioned), but I think reviews played up his getting the best lines so my expectations were set higher than was delivered. Still enjoyed the idea that he was The Heart of the team.
Movie needed more Falcon. I'm glad War Machine got a few moments, but I kept expecting Falcon to swoop in during the climax at some point.
Ultron was a good mix of funny and philosophical. Same goes for Vision. I'm also really happy with how they incorporated Thor into Vision's creation; the fact that he's actually concerned with the Infinity Gems is cool. Thor's about as overlooked as Hawkeye, I like that he played a significant role here. Quicksilver's death was pretty good (if expected).
The new Avengers lineup is neat. Scarlet Witch is probably my favorite of the new characters.
My only major complaint is that the Hulkbuster scene went on for way too long. Like the climax was understandably long, but the Hulkbuster fight just kept going and going and going and I found myself tiring of it a few minutes in.
I also don't care for the Banner/Natasha ship. Comes out of absolutely nowhere and contributes nothing that them just being friends would contribute. Hope it gets dropped in the future. Just felt like a waste of time, but eh. Opinions.
Overall I'd give it an 8/10.
edited 1st May '15 8:39:23 PM by HisInfernalMajesty
"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."