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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31676: May 1st 2015 at 12:44:46 PM

There's a case of accentuate the negative but in their defense they aren't alone. There's quite a few negative or mediocre reviews for the movie rn.

As for killing Quicksilver I think it came down to him being the only viable option of the characters available. Captain America, Iron Man, Black Widow, Hawkeye and Falcon were already confirmed to survive via Civil War and the same is true for Thor via Ragnarok. We debated it to death on here but there's reasons why they weren't gonna kill Fury or Rhodey and chances are given the flack they took for the lack of women in Phase 1, they weren't gonna kill Wanda either. And then there's Vision who needed to survive to help set up Infinity War. So that basically just left Hulk and Pietro.

edited 1st May '15 12:47:14 PM by comicwriter

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31677: May 1st 2015 at 12:47:13 PM

So...like, why couldn't Cap lift Thor's hammer? I did notice how he made it budge a bit, but I heard that he was one of the characters who actually lifted the hammer in the comics.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
TenebrousGaze Dark Eye from A Shaded Face Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Dark Eye
#31678: May 1st 2015 at 12:47:52 PM

Eh, it has some flaws (I'll accept that Bruce/Natasha was handled very badly) and I don't really think that's "the usual tumblr thing" but that is mostly accentuating the negative and most of their complaints seem to come from a total pessimism regarding the quality of future movies going away from Ao U.

One negative I will accept: Did they really need to kill off somebody? There are other plot devices.

edited 1st May '15 12:49:08 PM by TenebrousGaze

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#31679: May 1st 2015 at 12:48:17 PM

I tried reading that. They should really do a tl;dr thing or something. Or maybe add a background or increase the font size or something.

Cross (Don’t ask)
#31680: May 1st 2015 at 12:48:24 PM

[up][up][up]The difference between a soldier and a warrior?

edited 1st May '15 12:48:54 PM by Cross

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#31681: May 1st 2015 at 12:48:39 PM

Maybe he could pick it up but, being the upstanding guy he is, Steve didn't want to hurt his friend's ego so he let Thor think he wasn't quite worthy enough.tongue

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#31682: May 1st 2015 at 12:49:24 PM

Has the worthiness of Thor ever been defined concretely?

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#31683: May 1st 2015 at 12:50:24 PM

[up][up][up][up]Or at last to use bloody capitalization. I can't bring myself to read a long post that can't use proper capitalization. It is just too tiring to do so.

[up][up]I doubt. He was just by Stark in the end of the movie trying to rationalize why Vision could do it. I don't think he would be so invested in the topic if he could lift it.

edited 1st May '15 12:51:43 PM by Heatth

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31684: May 1st 2015 at 12:51:05 PM

From what I remember, only folks with purest heart/worthy can pick it up and I thought Cap was quintessential nice guy of Marvel.

For some reason, I'm rather miffed at how Cap can't lift it while JARV-I mean Vision can. :/

edited 1st May '15 12:53:29 PM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#31685: May 1st 2015 at 12:51:58 PM

That post was talking about spoilers, and while I pretty much gave in already (I don't think there were that many big twists there, unless I missed something), I didn't want to go through with it.

If their concern is about Joss Whedon, though, he seems pretty much done with Marvel now.

[up] SPOILER, gosh!

Maybe Cap isn't quite as pure-hearted as we think he is...

edited 1st May '15 12:52:46 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#31686: May 1st 2015 at 12:55:02 PM

Not exactly, but it usually deals with Heroic Sacrifice of some sort. Often the hammer can only be lifted by someone who sacrifices himself for the greater good, very often during said sacrifice (which is even displayed in the first Thor movie, where he only gets the Mjolnir after he sacrifices himself for humanity).

If I had to guess, Cap has the potential to lift it (already having sacrificed himself several times and all), but couldn't lift it during the party because the situation wasn't worthy. They're just playing around and/or trying to prove themselves to be morally superior to Thor, which isn't very "worthy". In the middle of a battle where lives are at stake, the situation would be "worthy" enough for Cap to lift it.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#31687: May 1st 2015 at 12:55:41 PM

Cap was suggested in this movie to be a bit of a Blood Knight, not actually sure what to do with himself out of a war. Vision was a little more detached from somewhat prejudicing things like patriotism or even pride in one's species. He wasn't fighting because he liked humans, he fought because he likes life in general.

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31688: May 1st 2015 at 12:55:45 PM

[up][up], [up]Hmm, makes sense.

edited 1st May '15 12:56:01 PM by dRoy

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#31689: May 1st 2015 at 12:56:12 PM

They did say that Civil War would take a look at the darker and more selfish side of Cap's goodness and idealism.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#31690: May 1st 2015 at 12:56:55 PM

Vision sounds really cool.

Oh God! Natural light!
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#31691: May 1st 2015 at 12:57:34 PM

Well, Cap is a soldier. He kills people for a living. Winter Soldier implies he regularly goes on Covert Ops which are rather morally murky things to do.

Then again, Thor kills people too given that he's a warrior so I'm really not sure how the hammer defines worthiness.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#31692: May 1st 2015 at 12:57:54 PM

It was also in The Winter Soldier. Steve says he doesn't know what makes him happy, but the parts when he's happiest are when he's in combat, joking about being too busy to date and leaping out of airplanes. Even Nat said he sounded surprisingly chipper about HYDRA being back from the dead, because now he knows whose faces to punch again.

edited 1st May '15 12:58:17 PM by Tuckerscreator

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31693: May 1st 2015 at 1:00:56 PM

God, I wish that either the next Thor or Avenger movie gives more clear definition of worthiness in regards to Thor's hammer.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#31694: May 1st 2015 at 1:02:03 PM

Yeah, I think that's the dark side of Cap. He doesn't like shades of gray. He likes things to be simple, black and white.

"How do we tell the good guys from the bad?"

"If they're shooting at you, they're bad."

[up] I would laugh so hard if Darcy just picks up the hammer without comment in Thor 3 and Thor is like, "Dammit, not again."

edited 1st May '15 1:03:05 PM by PurpleDalek

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#31695: May 1st 2015 at 1:04:35 PM

[lol]

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31696: May 1st 2015 at 1:09:24 PM

Thor being able to lift it in the first movie was based on his character development from an arrogant, brutish Manchild who loves murdering people to someone who understands the value of life and is willing to give up his own own to protect the innocent.

It's hinted a few times in this one that Cap might have a bit of a darker side than we're told, with his nightmare scenario being a post-war world where he isn't needed and Ultron accusing him of relishing combat because he wouldn't know what to do in a world at peace.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#31697: May 1st 2015 at 1:09:54 PM

The point about Cap's Blood Knight tendencies may be the key to this. Thor's character arc in the first film is precisely that he starts as a bloodthirsty warmonger and starts valuing life. He is unable to lift the hammer while being bloodthirsty, but he does get the hammer when he forgoes the path of the Blood Knight and tries a peaceful resolution.

So, battle-loving tendencies may also factor in the Mjolnir's worthiness.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#31698: May 1st 2015 at 1:12:30 PM

"How do we tell the good guys from the bad?"

"If they're shooting at you, they're bad."

Well, to be fair, that was probably an accurate tactical analysis of the scenario. Still, good point.

Oh God! Natural light!
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#31699: May 1st 2015 at 1:13:30 PM

I don't think that Cap loves fighting or war, so much as being troubled by the idea that he'd be purposeless in a world without it. And preferring enemies he can take on in a straight fight to those he can't.

He's less of a Blood Knight that Thor, who still definitely does enjoy fighting (as in the scene at the start of the Dark World where he's in one of the other realms).

edited 1st May '15 1:14:23 PM by Galadriel

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#31700: May 1st 2015 at 1:14:51 PM

Makes sense. A love for war often doesn't make for an effective ruler of one's own people, and Odin probably didn't want Thor to go the way of Alexander the Great.

edited 1st May '15 1:16:16 PM by AlleyOop


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