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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31451: Apr 26th 2015 at 8:50:36 AM

[up]x4 Uh-huh. Let's just take a looksie here...

  • 45.'Darker Than Scarlet'. So, you (not you, but the writer of the article,) are saying that the seed for Bendis' absolute trainwreck of a story that was Avengers Disassembled deserves to be in the top 50? I mean, sure, Thomas at least gave it a decent ending, but think about it; another writer had to step in to give it a good ending. Sure, Byrne apparently walked out rather than being fired, but still. This is the story that started the whole 'Scarlet Witch goes nutsy-fufu' plot-thread that Bendis decided to bring to the fore, and because of that, I honestly can't say it's really that good.

  • 37.'The Court Martial of Yellow Jacket'. In case some people are unaware, this is that story. Yes indeed, this is the story that was responsible for Hank Pym's career defining move.tongue I am of course referring to the wife-slapping incident, which happened in this story, along with Hank just completely and utterly breaking down. That said, at least there's precedent for it; while this was probably the worst breakdown Pym had had up until this point, it was far from the first; if anything, this was the logical conclusion of a couple decades worth of breakdowns and a hinted at inferiority complex. (Not to mention guilt over having created Ultron, as well as having a breakdown in his freaking backstory.) And if it weren't for the whole 'Slapping Janet' thing, who knows? It might actually have been a really good story. But slapping Janet, and knowing of the reputation — both in and out of universe — that this story was going to spawn, well, it's hard to look at that story without that hindsight, which just brings it down several notches. I wouldn't say it's actually bad, but I can't really put it in the top #50 Avengers stories either. Never Live It Down indeed.

  • 36.'The Secret Invasion'. Not really too much to say about it; it was just underwhelming, really. Not bad, but not really that great or anything, as most events tend to be, and certainly not deserving of a top 50 spot.

  • 31.'Vision Quest'. Okay; people who have only seen the movies, and have seen Age of Ultron; do you remember the Vision? Assuming that he's like how he is in the comics, do you remember how he was a cool, interesting character with a likeable personality? And when the next couple of Avengers films come out, I'm sure they'll give him a lot of good Character Development that will make you come to care about him, at least to some extent. Now imagine if all of that development, every single iota of his personality, (and color scheme for that matter,) was stripped away, and what we ultimately got was instead a mere hollow shell of the Vision. That's what Vision Quest basically amounted to; turning the Vision into a completely emotionless, colorless husk. And on top of that, it made Wonderman (he was the basis for Vision's brain patterns in the comics, don't you know,) come across as a total jerk, as he refused to let the Vision use his brain patterns again and be restored to his former self. Go team.tongue Rather than being one of the Top 50 Avengers stories of all time, I'd put in the bottom 10.

  • 26'.Breakout. Ah yes, the very first story of 'New Avengers'; the one which made Spiderman and Wolverine Avengers forever more. (Or at least a long time.) The story itself was okay, but hardly Top 50 material, and bringing Spiderman and Wolverine into the Avengers when it doesn't make much sense to do so just brings it down. (And yes, I know that Wolverine didn't actually join until the next storyline, but he was on the cover of the fist freaking issue; it was hardly a stretch to say that he was going to join sooner or later.) And on top of that, you had the Sentry, and the less said of him the better.

  • 25.'Avengers Dissasembled'. They can't be serious. This is the story that took Byrne's 'Scarlet Witch goes nutsy-fufu' plotthread and ran with it, ignoring past continuity to do so. Basically, the idea is that Scarlet Witch goes crazy because she suddenly remembers her children, which turned out to really just be constructs crafted from the soul of the supervillain Lord Pandemonium, much to her dismay. But the thing is, both she and her former husband, the Vision, had previously remembered their children, even talked about them, and they both turned out just fine; no craziness involved. And yet, she goes crazy here, because Bendis wanted her to, and the result is Hawkeye being killed off, Jack of Hearts and Scott Lang!Antman being killed off, (they're all back now, by the way,) and Doctor Strange saying that there is 'no such thing as chaos magic', despite him not only saying in the past that there is such a thing as chaos magic, but using it himself. It's a disaster of a story if there ever was one.

  • 16.'Civil War.' I already wrote a review on it some time back, and also wrote several lengthy comments about it in response to the other review that was wrote up, but suffice to say: Everyone was OOC, they never made a set-in-stone act, and Fuhrer Stark. It was bad.

Every other story on the list is fine, and starting with #14 or so, we get some true bonafide classics, but it seems that some of the picks were based more on their importance to continuity rather than the quality of the stories themselves.

edited 26th Apr '15 4:03:45 PM by kkhohoho

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31452: Apr 26th 2015 at 9:01:00 AM

I once saw someone state that the reason Pym interests them as a character is because he's one of the few people who has actually had the inability of creators to agree with what to do with him integrated into his characterization.

The writers could never agree on a name, costume or take that stuck, so someone eventually made it canon that he suffers from severe self esteem issues and that his constant costume/identity changes are usually a sign of bad things going on in his brain.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#31453: Apr 26th 2015 at 9:03:02 AM

[up][up]Do you think an adaptation could do those stories well?

[up] That's uniquely interesting commentary. Perhaps a similar thing could be said of Captain MARVEL.

edited 26th Apr '15 9:04:43 AM by Whowho

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31455: Apr 26th 2015 at 11:36:44 AM

[up][up]Maybe. A few of the basic ideas are good, especially Secret Invasion and Civil War; it's the execution that was so-so in Secret Wars' case, and atrocious in Civil Wars'. Although, some ideas are just bad, such as Vision Quest, or the 'Scarlet Witch goes nutsy-fufu' plothread. I actually tried to think of ways to make the latter work, but to make SW crazy without it being a complete Ass Pull, you need a proper catalyst, such as losing her kids, and I don't know if the Wanda and the Vision having kids is something that the bigwigs in charge of the MCU want to do, in part of because of just how convoluted finding a way for a human and an android to have kids would be. (Maybe they could adopt? It would certainly help nix the idea of them just being pieces of somebody elses' soul, at least. Though they'd still have to kill the kids off somehow; not sure how that would go over.)

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#31456: Apr 26th 2015 at 11:46:42 AM

Is this Secret Wars where it becomes apparent that Nick Fury erased the Avengers' memories of invading Latvia? Or the stupid one with the stupid battle world. Or the other stupid one with the stupid battle world.

Why is the current comics storyline going back to that stupid battle world by the way? I really hate that.

Also, Dissembled would work better if it was an intentional and sanely motivated attacked by Wanda against the Avengers.

Secret Invasion was worth while because it was an actually satisfying way to bring back lots of dead characters. Oh, and make Tony realise he'd damned us all, that was satisfying, and it also lead into Dark Reign which is just, the best.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31457: Apr 26th 2015 at 12:01:47 PM

[up]

Also, Dissembled would work better if it was an intentional and sanely motivated attacked by Wanda against the Avengers.

I don't know about that. It was bad enough with Wanda just being nuts, but to have her attack the Avengers sanely and intentionally? I just don't think that would be something she'd do, or at least of her own violation; the closest we got to that was 'Darker Than Scarlet' by Byrne, and even then, Immortus was still partly behind it. (The Lord of Limbo, for those who don't know who Immortus is.) I just don't see Wanda as someone who, completely in her right mind, would go against the Avengers, Ao U aside.

edited 26th Apr '15 12:02:07 PM by kkhohoho

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31458: Apr 26th 2015 at 12:14:18 PM

Why is the current comics storyline going back to that stupid battle world by the way? I really hate that.

Because stupid battle world made them a stupid amount of money.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#31459: Apr 26th 2015 at 1:14:54 PM

I think they already went as dark as they wanted to with Wanda when she more or less went crazy after Quicksilver died. The scene when she is ripping out Ultron's "heart"...talk about getting crap past the radar.

TenebrousGaze Dark Eye from A Shaded Face Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Dark Eye
#31460: Apr 26th 2015 at 1:37:55 PM

Saw Ao U earlier. Overall I definitely liked it, although it wasn't perfect. Two things which occur to me first are 1. Did it really have to be that long? (although I can't think of what would be cut) and 2. Was killing off Quicksilver really that necessary?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31461: Apr 26th 2015 at 1:51:51 PM

[up]I guess they wanted to kill SOMEONE and he was just the most viable option.

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#31463: Apr 26th 2015 at 2:21:32 PM

I wonder how much of it is due to Executive Meddling and how much are the director's. Chances are the pointless shoutouts to minor characters, cramming in of so many people, Klaue cameo, Infinity/Thanos stuff, who dies, Thor subplot and all the other thinly veiled Sequel Hooks are probably on Feige's end.

But the numerous complaints about characterization and Flanderizing are probably a result of Whedon's own choices, considering past statements he's made on working with other writers' material. Also maybe it's just me but Marvel seems way more interested in controlling the plot than stuff like dialogue and characterization, outside of nixing stuff like smoking and drinking.

edited 26th Apr '15 2:28:20 PM by AlleyOop

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31464: Apr 26th 2015 at 2:29:54 PM

[up]x4 If you thought that was long, wait until the extended version comes out; that one's supposed to be around three hours.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#31465: Apr 26th 2015 at 2:31:53 PM

They already announced that they're going to release an extended edition?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#31467: Apr 26th 2015 at 2:39:08 PM

Word of God from Whedon was that Klaue was Whedon's decision, since he needed to find someone from the comics who would logically have access to large amounts of vibranium. He claims he wasn't even aware that they were making a BP movie back when he started writing the Age of Ultron screenplay.

I would not be surprised if some of the other stuff was meddling though. At the very least though, some of the Infinity War stuff was likely him since he was the one introduced Thanos in the first place.

edited 26th Apr '15 2:39:51 PM by comicwriter

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#31468: Apr 26th 2015 at 2:52:44 PM

Personally, I didn't feel the movie was too long. If anything, I felt it was too short. I didn't notice the time fly by and were completely engaged in the screen all the time. A couple of plot elements felt a bit rushed, however (Thor's subplot being the worst offender).

Also didn't notice any wave of pointless cameos. Dr. Helen Cho was the only character that I felt kinda forced in. Klaue appearance felt like a perfectly natural extension of the story. I didn't even notice he was supposed to be a pre existing comic character. If he was a nameless smuggler the story would flow just as well. The fact he had an interesting personality and ties to a future movie just makes it better.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#31469: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:04:17 PM

I don't think that Cho was necessarily forced in, either, it was just that there was more time spend on her than it was strictly needed.

On a different note, I was ridiculously pleased how much they reused already established characters at points where it really fit, from the "big names" to the smallest "had one line once" guy.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#31470: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:10:35 PM

Alley Oop, you should probably watch the film, because the film you're criticising is resembling Age of Ultron less and less.

I mean, I'd like to discuss these topics you're raising, but it's difficult when mostly I'm stuck clarifying things.

As for cameos, Klaue and Cho are useful plot points, making them people from the comics is probably a lot smarter than making them original characters; it gives the fans less things to love.

And on the topic of the run time [up][up] I think the film would have been enjoyable to me more if it was longer, because it could have allowed for a more enriching tone and more time to look at why saving Vision was narratively important but the film certainly doesn't need those things, and making it longer may well have turned the critics and less dedicated audiences from it.

Characterisation-wize, Cap's the only one I'd call iffy. Don't get me wrong, I think his characterisation is a logical progression from The Winter Soldier (Less so than Natasha's mind), but I also think the time skip doesn't allow us to get a solid justification for it, which makes me afraid the Brothers come Civil War are going to ignore the development.

Also, I suspect Quick-Ass' death was a suggestion from someone other than Joss, because it just seems to allow future development of Scarlet Witch even though Joss has no intention of writing that.

edited 26th Apr '15 3:16:44 PM by Whowho

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#31471: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:23:41 PM

I had no problem with Cap.

Man, I really hope they release the extended version in my country. I don't care what anyone else says, my main complain is that this movie is too damned short! There are a couple of scenes I would have loved to see, and which are hopefully in the extended version. Like A little bit more time to grieve for Jarvis and Quicksilver, Tony and Wanda actually talking to each other at one point, a little bit more related to Vision, clarification if Dr. Cho survived or not and it just feels like there are sometimes transition scenes which were cut-out for time, but would have made some aspects more fluent...for example, we never actually see Wanda attacking Bruce And that's not like The Dark Knight Rises where you just wonder when the movie is finally getting to the point, this feels like every single scene is important somehow.

And I really hope that Ao S will clarify some background stuff, too.

GeekCodeRed Since: Sep, 2010
#31472: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:27:56 PM

Saw it again. Opinions have not changed.

I don't know if the Wanda and the Vision having kids is something that the bigwigs in charge of the MCU want to do, in part of because of just how convoluted finding a way for a human and an android to have kids would be.

...isn't Vision organic? I mean, he's a vibranium/human cell mix on a molecular level. Dude can probably have kids, just needs the equipment (which, given that he made his clothes and cape... he can probably do).

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#31473: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:39:21 PM

As long as he can synthesize sperm or has his own unique DNA sequence, it's entirely possible for her to conceive via in vitro fertilization.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#31474: Apr 26th 2015 at 3:41:17 PM

Adopting would allow the kids to actually be characters though.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#31475: Apr 26th 2015 at 4:01:28 PM

[up][up]Well, in the comics, the Vision was technically a 'synthazoid', which is basically just another term for an android; he was even built out of the parts of the original Human Torch, Marvels' (or Timely's, as it was called back then,) very first Superhero, an android himself. And because of this, he and Wanda were never able to reproduce without the aid of some good ol' fashioned magic, and even that was undone with the next writer.

However, it sounds like just what exactly Vision is is at least somewhat different in the movie, so who knows? Maybe they can do it.

edited 26th Apr '15 4:03:12 PM by kkhohoho


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