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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30201: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:12:56 PM

[up][up]If the MCU animated projects were stand-alone films I don't think that'd be much of a problem.

A TV show isn't really in the cards I don't think because there's simply way too many chances for it to completely fuck up the canon, thus negating the whole purpose of doing a tie-in in the first place.

But say a Hawkeye DTV or something? I'd be down for that.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#30202: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:13:00 PM

I assume the Assemble team shares people with, like, Ultimate Spider-Man, and that show was pretty bad, so

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30203: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:16:36 PM

I couldn't even get through the first season of Ultimate Spider-Man. I'm going to have to watch the Miles episode one of these days though.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#30204: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:19:38 PM

I wish I lived in an alternate universe where Spectacular Spider-Man survived long enough to introduce Miles, but If this is what I have to settle for, I suppose I'll have to watch the episode, too.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30205: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:32:35 PM

[up]Well, Spectacular already introduced Hobie Brown, so presumably he would be Prowler, which wouldn't really gel with Miles's comic backstory.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#30206: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:34:38 PM

Spectacular did a lot of stuff that didn't fit in with how the comics were, though. Like, Eddie Brock being Peter's surrogate brother, for example. And Gwen Stacy not getting shoved in a refrigerator.

Failing any other ideas, they could just have Miles come from an alternate universe.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30207: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:36:43 PM

[up]Eddie was based on the Ultimate version, so that is from the comics. Just not the 616. Also, we don't really know if Gwen would've died or not considering the show was canceled.

Also, Spectacular was pretty narrowly focused on New York's supervillains and organized crime. I doubt it ever would've done any grandoise dimension-hopping plotlines or anything. Heck, the only aliens in the show (Venom and Colonel Jupiter's spores) were pretty much glossed over.

(I'm trying to get an encyclopedic knowledge of the show for the fanfic in my signature, by the way.)

edited 4th Apr '15 8:38:58 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30208: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:38:44 PM

I believe that word of god is they wouldn't kill her.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30209: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:39:41 PM

[up]I heard they might have killed her had they been allowed to make a direct-to-DVD movie based on Peter's college years.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30210: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:17:10 PM

[up] I fucking hope not. I really, really fucking hope not.

I'm so tired of Gwen Stacy being killed, honestly. Destroy that storyline completely.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#30211: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:20:08 PM

You might say you want to kill that storyline?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30212: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:20:12 PM

It doesn't actually happen as much as you'd think but the fact that you think it happens more than it does kind of shows to what extent it has consumed her entire being.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#30213: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:21:53 PM

I kinda hope that at some point in the future she'll be known more for "Spider Gwen" than dying for Peter's manpain.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30214: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:25:00 PM

To be fair, Gwen was an incredibly boring character in the Silver Age, so her death was literally the most interesting thing to happen to her up to that point. In fact, the only other thing she's really known for in the 616-verse is getting cloned, which is a plotline that kinda requires her to die first for it to happen...

(Also having Norman's babies, but we don't talk about that...)

edited 4th Apr '15 9:25:38 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30215: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:33:16 PM

To be fair, Gwen was an incredibly boring character in the Silver Age, so her death was literally the most interesting thing to happen to her up to that point.
I don't care??? Even if she was literally the most boring character ever, I think it's better of us as a society to move past killing female characters just to ramp up the angst for a male hero.

It's just....really lazy writing, IMO.

edited 4th Apr '15 9:35:52 PM by higherbrainpattern

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30216: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:34:19 PM

She apparently didn't start boring but got boring as time went on.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30217: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:45:57 PM

[up][up]Okay, but you can't give people and adaptations crap for only remembering her death when for a long stretch of time, it was literally the only memorable thing about her. Whether or not it was bad writing doesn't change the fact that it's famous.

Also, most adaptations either don't kill Gwen or at least bother fleshing out her character first, so I really don't think it's that big an issue.

(By the way, Spectacular Spider-Man probably could've revealed Gwen was a purple tapdancing alien from Mars and it would've been amazing because the show was so incredibly well written. Spectacular payed a whole lot of homages to the Silver Age, so I'm sure they could've killed Gwen if they'd felt like it and it would've been fine.)

edited 4th Apr '15 9:51:54 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30218: Apr 4th 2015 at 9:57:39 PM

I would've lost a lot of respect for Greg Weisman if that had happened.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30219: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:04:44 PM

The reason I tend to take issue with Gwen's death isn't so much the gender aspect as it is the fact that it invalidates any character development Gwen receives. It really frustrated me when the Ultimate comics spent so much time developing her just to have her randomly killed off for no reason.

In the original story, her death was pure shock value, so if you wanted to make it "good writing," you'd have to make it some essential part of the story, like Mufasa's death in Lion King. The thing is, Gwen's not really a big pillar of morality like Mufasa. She's usually written as either a wallflower (in Spectacular) or a capable, fun, snarky friend to Peter (in the Ultimate comics and Amazing movies).

Having her death have any kind of meaning besides "makes Peter very sad" would probably require Gwen to be some kind of Christ-type figure, which A) isn't a perfect fit for a high school / college-age love interest character and B) is kinda already taken by, I don't know, Uncle Ben. How many dead characters does Peter need to motivate himself, exactly?

edited 4th Apr '15 10:09:24 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30220: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:07:24 PM

....dude, why are you still trying to justify reasons for killing off gwen stacy??? 'cause there really aren't any that aren't just plain old fridging. And I hate fridging. I think it's a shitty, sexist trope that needs to go away forever.

edited 4th Apr '15 10:08:10 PM by higherbrainpattern

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#30221: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:20:04 PM

[up]Well, Tropes Are Tools. Yeah, Stuffed into the Fridge is usually a sign of bad writing, but it's not like it's literally impossible for the death of a female character to have meaning to it. Does that mean any preexisting Spider-Man stories have handled Gwen's death perfectly? Heck, no. But I feel like the concept itself isn't inherently worthless.

I mean, is having a loved one murdered by a supervillain not a reasonable consequence of being a superhero? Is the reason Gwen died in the original not because Green Goblin figured out Peter's identity and wanted to hurt him? Is a character's reaction to the death of a loved one not a worthwhile concept to explore in fiction?

edited 4th Apr '15 10:25:06 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30222: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:29:36 PM

Consequences shmonsequences. There's no female agency involved in cases of fridging. It'd be one thing if the character in question was actively choosing to be in danger by contributing to the fight against a supervillain and they're killed for their trouble, but fridging doesn't involve that at all, now does it?

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#30223: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:31:03 PM

... That takes quite a bit of punch out of the Gwen Stacy argument considering that her most recent death (and she doesn't have all that many) was a direct result of her choosing to get involved.

edited 4th Apr '15 10:31:46 PM by Khfan429

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#30225: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:33:01 PM

[up][up] Against Electro. not against the Green Goblin. Harry literally just flew in after Gwen helped defeat Electro, sees Gwen, sees Spidey, puts two and two together and kills Gwen to cause Spidey pain, because Harry's deduced that Spidey is Peter.

[up] How many female villains have tried to kill Gwen Stacy? And it'd still be fridging if the female villain in question did the exact same thing the Green Goblin did, which was kidnapping her and then killing her to cause Spidey pain.

I can do this all day, pal.

edited 4th Apr '15 10:35:35 PM by higherbrainpattern


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