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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#30176: Apr 3rd 2015 at 2:23:48 PM

[up][up]Well the film was written with the character in mind so I imagine they have a pretty good idea of what she'll be doing. Cho is American in the comics but maybe he'll be South Korean in the movies. It's also possible that his mother is from Seoul but he was born here.

edited 3rd Apr '15 2:24:11 PM by Kostya

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30177: Apr 3rd 2015 at 2:24:03 PM

I'm more saddened by them having apparently removed Von Strucker's backstory as a WWII veteran.

It's for the best, really.

Nearly every character that was active in WWII is still around and kicking in the 616 today, and it gets ridiculous. They get away with it because they've had a consistent presence in the comics since the actual WWII and nobody ever dies for good in comics, but the MCU doesn't have quite as many Grandfather Clauses as the comics do.

The comics have had to bend over backwards coming up with so many different justifications for why 90% of the key personalities in WWII are alive and kicking today as the sliding timescale moves ever forward, but the movies have an edge in that they don't have to do that. Zemo can be introduced as a fresh, new character while still retaining his relationship to the Hydra organization.

edited 3rd Apr '15 2:24:38 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30178: Apr 3rd 2015 at 2:24:41 PM

Well "Helen" is already a non-Korean name so it's possible she's an expat or was born in America but works in Seoul. Such things aren't unheard of.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#30179: Apr 3rd 2015 at 2:30:55 PM

I guess it's also possible she divorced his dad and moved back to South Korea after he was born or something. If Amadeus Cho is in the MCU he would have probably been born a good long time ago.

I would like them to provide a reasonable explanation for why Strucker is so cartoonishly Nazi-like, when a lot of time in Cap 2 was spent on showing how HYDRA evolved out of that into a more universal evil.

edited 3rd Apr '15 2:43:49 PM by AlleyOop

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#30180: Apr 3rd 2015 at 2:47:01 PM

Hydra seems to be pretty fragmented. Maybe Strucker's just has a different overall goal.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#30181: Apr 3rd 2015 at 3:18:18 PM

I gnenerally don't mind doing that kind of thing, but I believe some characters should retain their WWII backstories. Captain America (when he's Steve Rogers, that is), Red Skull and Von Strucker chief amongst them. I think their WWII past is really a core part of the character.

Baron Strucker is basically the living embodiment of the Nazi Nobleman archetype and also firmly connected with the Prussian military tradition (whom he clearly represents). His aristocratic military ways are rather difficult to adapt to a modern backstory, particularly since Prussians were wiped out of the face of the planet during World War Two.

I'm not saying, of course, the character will be terrible due the change, I'm just saddened because I think it was a pretty fundamental part of the character.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#30182: Apr 3rd 2015 at 3:20:31 PM

I think they could have kept it by having him use the same cryogenic freezing Winter Soldier used and being regularly awakened every decade or so to check on how HYDRA's doing.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30183: Apr 3rd 2015 at 3:25:56 PM

Cap and the Red Skull are the iconic WWII pair, I agree, but I draw the line with them.

There's a limit to how many different ways you can write "Evil Nazi" and still have them be compelling and distinct characters, and that limit is 1. There is only 1 Evil Nazi character, because literal Nazis are a pretty one-dimensional concept as villains go.

In the comics, Hydra has this problem as most of its major villains are completely identical to each other, by virtue of every Hydra villain being an Evil Nazi. They're all Sophisticated as Hell power-hungry madmen with zero regard for human life who desire world domination and don't care how many billions of people have to die for them to attain it. None of them are particularly engaging, because Evil Nazis have about as much depth of character as Zombies.

The MCU had its Evil Nazi with the Red Skull and even got a bonus Evil Nazi in Whitehall over in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and that's enough literal Nazis. A creative decision was made to take Hydra in a direction other than "The Nazis, STILL around" and their presentation is stronger for it.

edited 3rd Apr '15 3:28:12 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30184: Apr 3rd 2015 at 3:36:39 PM

I generally agree with the point about Strucker's Nazi heritage being important, but at the same time I think it's also one of those things where unless we get another Cap movie that features heavy flashbacks or something like an Invaders movie, he'd essentially be a wasted opportunity.

So I can see why if they want to use him, making him a modern HYDRA operative instead of a Nazi war criminal is probably easier.

I do think Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes had a nice compromise where he was still a German WW 2 veteran, but was kept young by sucking his victims' youth out via his Satan Claw.

edited 3rd Apr '15 3:37:32 PM by comicwriter

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#30185: Apr 3rd 2015 at 3:41:03 PM

[up][up]I disagree immensely. Conspiracy is an entire cast composed entirely of varying degrees of "Evil Nazi" (with the possible exception of the Chancellor who's the Token Good Teammate), and they're all distinct, unique and interesting. There are plenty of ways to write Nazis.

For that matter Skull and Strucker are different breeds of Nazis. Skull is usually a intelligence officer who works for the SS, while Von Strucker is frequently depicted as a Wehrmacht officer. One is (usually) a intelligence officer based on deception and mad science, the other's a fullblown military man.

For that matter Strucker is a lot more strongerly connected to the Prussian military tradition and the Wehrmacht than he is to the Nazi party. He employs the old archetype of Germanic Efficiency as a calm, experient, understated and ruthless mastermind. Skull leans more to an Ax-Crazy Large Ham.

Which ties in how Strucker, whole Prussian thing and all, is almost ridiculously aristocratic. He wears a monocle, he is a master fencer, has dueling scars, he's a Man of Wealth and Taste, and his name is goddamn Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker. You literally cannot find a person more "Prussian aristocracy" than him.

edited 3rd Apr '15 3:41:35 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#30187: Apr 3rd 2015 at 10:57:20 PM

Better quality (actual HD):

edited 3rd Apr '15 10:57:51 PM by Heatth

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#30190: Apr 4th 2015 at 10:53:41 AM

Did they leave out Hawkeye again?

TenebrousGaze Dark Eye from A Shaded Face Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Dark Eye
#30191: Apr 4th 2015 at 11:26:11 AM

He doesn't have much to work with, I guess. Could have been done but like Black Widow's, would have just been black with a bit of another colour.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30192: Apr 4th 2015 at 11:42:32 AM

Merchandise-wise, he's still made out a lot better than Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, who have gotten almost nothing for some reason.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30194: Apr 4th 2015 at 2:47:25 PM

The interesting part is that it's not only limiting, but kind of hard to keep up in the long run. The immediate thing that comes to mind is that across the board so much of the merchandise and adaptations focus solely on the 6 Avengers from the first movie, and now we're entering a stage where it looks like we're getting a new line-up going forward.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#30195: Apr 4th 2015 at 2:59:44 PM

It's a more worthwhile article than I expected, and I like that it considered the counterargument of how different Cap, Thor, and Hulk in the comics are now.

DrFurball Since: Jan, 2001
#30197: Apr 4th 2015 at 3:53:12 PM

I just love the amount of enthusiasm everyone has for this show. It's infectious, and I think it's one of the reasons I'm so excited for it.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#30198: Apr 4th 2015 at 5:45:28 PM

I loved this part the most.

Obviously it was great to involve the John Romita Jr. black ninja costume but the day I first put on the iconic costume is a day I will never forget.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#30199: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:02:50 PM

Oh, and the reason for the IGN article: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/04/marvel-animated-projects-could-tie-into-marvel-cinematic-univers/

I don't have a problem with the idea of animated series based on the MCU in principle. Personally, I think they're a great opportunity to expand on characters like the Asgardians, Black Widow, the Howling Commandos, Hawkeye, Sharon, and other characters who are interesting or have a fanbase but it might be too impractical to make a full movie or do a live action series for. At the same time, I don't think the MCU should be allowed to dictate the future direction of Marvel's animated properties as a whole either. Make the foray into doing a few MCU-centric miniseries, but otherwise leave the actual animation department to their own devices.

edited 4th Apr '15 8:06:35 PM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#30200: Apr 4th 2015 at 8:10:48 PM

The biggest sin of the Assemble roster isn't that its bad, its that the show makes it boring.

A static roster in an animated show isn't so bad. I'd argue that the changing roster in EMH is part of what made it so good but Teen Titans and the first Justice League show had static rosters. But they did stuff with that.

Assemble put Black Widow on the team and then forgot to do anything with her for most of season one. And the first time she was important to a plot, she was a damsel in distress. From Dracula.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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