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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
No.
Also, Bucky had a cyborg arm because his original arm was amputated off because of Zola/Hydra experimenting on him and brainwashing him.
There's no need to even have a debate. There's nothing complex about a guy who's entire gimmick during the movie is "lol, look how edgy and chaotic I am!!!!!!1"
edited 12th Mar '15 3:19:39 PM by higherbrainpattern
You've soundly defeated me with your debate skills.
EDIT: Oh, nevermind, I see you've edited it so your post is longer than one word.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:17:12 PM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Did you really miss that "The Winter Soldier" is actually about the concept of spying on people "for the greater good", and against the idea of trying to prevent crime before it even happens?
”Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.”
That's the core theme of the movie. Pierce's arguments are the ones we hear every day when someone decides to act in the name of "the greater good" while forgetting the people he is supposed to protect.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:17:48 PM by Swanpride
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And no, the metal arm doesn't make the movie more interesting, but it is a visible reminder of what Bucky went through. He is practically the Anti-Captain American. While the Cap fought for his believes, he was forced to fought for someone else's believes.
Too bad, I liked the other one better.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:20:35 PM by Swanpride
Bucky has a deeper philosophical purpose than just Steve's friend for angst. As Steve represents America as it should be, Bucky represents what it has become. A powerful hunter who doesn't realize that it's being manipulated. A former person who doesn't recognize their old ideals and wants to kill those who could most help him. A ruthless killer, but one who can still be saved and brought back to the way they were before. Someone who's feared who should be pitied. That's basically how I see it.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:22:08 PM by Tuckerscreator
Comparing any MCU film to the Dark Knight trilogy is like comparing apples and oranges. They're two radically different approaches to two radically different stories. One is an entertaining story with a thematic edge and the other is a thematic story with an entertaining edge. The Nolan films were far more about their themes than their characters. Everyone in those films have more symbolic weight to them than weight as actual people (more of a Nolan trademark than a DC or Batman one). Look no further than the main antagonists; all three spend most of their screentime preaching some kind of twisted moral philosophy so we barely learning anything about them - but it doesn't matter. Their beliefs are their characters.
That same kind of thematic presence is certainly there in Winter Soldier and the other MCU films - but I do believe the primary intention of Marvel anything verses DC is to entertain first and make you think second. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do a good job of doing both of those things; but Winter Soldier just does a particularly good job of doing both compared to the rest. I think the same can be said of Guardians. The former is really relevant to current events with the theme of distrusting the government and with Guardians - any story focusing on a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits is immediately relatable.
Sure those themes might not seem as heavy as the morality issues in the Nolan movies, but they're no less important or relevant - especially to Marvel's rather broad audience.
"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."
x6 Yes, I did notice that message. In fact, I thought it was a little heavy-handed. But it still boiled down to "side A is right, side B is wrong," so I don't consider it a complex moral dilemma, and I don't think the movie deserves any extra merit for it.
To reiterate, I don't hate Winter Solider. I thought the movie was fine. I just don't think it's a flawless masterpiece, and I think people are giving it undue credit. If you like it for being a fun action-adventure movie with a good mix of humor and drama, I'm totally on board with you. If you think the movie presented a complex political message, that's where you've lost me.
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Aaaaaand that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I sincerely don't believe the people who wrote this movie were trying to make Bucky an allegory for "what America has become." I think they just put him in because he's an iconic character from the comics and they needed a memorable antagonist. I mean, if you stare at something and squint long enough, you can find "deeper meaning" like that in pretty much anything. Heck, even if that is the "deeper meaning" of Bucky's character, that wasn't his primary role in the film. He was clearly meant as an antagonist with a personal connection to Steve, and any other purpose he had in the story was definitely not as in-your-face, meaning the filmmakers didn't particularly care if the audience came away from their movie with that message or not. They were more concerned with the audience having a good time than contemplating their navels.
That's not an inherently bad thing. Movies are allowed to be fun. Not everything has to be a dark and gritty philosophical debate. But I just think Winter Soldier is being painted as something it's not.
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edited 12th Mar '15 3:35:55 PM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.The Dark Knight mostly dealt with taking themes from Joker's comic book characterization and applying them to a "realistic" setting. While doing this, it also dealt with themes of loss and its effect on individuals, and the morality behind vigilante justice.
The Winter Soldier deals with taking an ongoing debate in the present and applying them in a fantastical universe. It's firmly on the side of the "government surveillance and oversight = == = = super bad."
However, in the way Winter Soldier deals with the questions that arise about our current government, I don't feel like it deals with them in a nuanced way that the topic deserves. Instead, it feels like "Yep, government oversight is definitely bad, now here's some exploding superplanes." Though there is that little nugget of depth with Fury commenting on seeing Pierce as a friend, other than that, it sets up the antagonists as irredeemable fascists-whateversits. And Bucky, instead of having agency in his supposed parallel to current America, is brainwashed into this plan.
Also, just gonna say right now, I don't really feel like I care that much about Bucky. I cared a little bit about him in the first movie, but throughout the second movie, I felt like the lack of focus on him individually other than like two scenes showing the brainwashing process really hurt his character. I would have preferred to spend more time with him instead of a lot of the action set pieces at the height of the second act.
I'm of the same opinion as the poster above me, by the way. I thought Winter Soldier was decent.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:34:31 PM by cutewithoutthe
x10 The fact that the Joker is NOT MUTE makes him more complex a character than Winter Solider!Bucky. Heck, Sandman from Spider-Man 3 is more complex than Winter Solider!Bucky. BUCKY BARELY HAD ANY LINES!
Assuming the third movie fleshes Bucky out some more, I feel like the second movie should've been called "Captain America: Hydra Infiltration" or something (I know that's a dumb name, but you get the idea), and the third movie should've been called "Winter Solider."
And that's another thing. With the third movie being Civil War, I have to question how much focus Bucky is going to recieve. Are they going to make him relevant in some way, or will he be more of a footnote? Or are they saving Bucky for Captain America 4?
edited 12th Mar '15 3:45:03 PM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.....that's pretty much what critical thinking and analysis is. Squinting at things and finding out the overarching themes and meaning behind those things.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:45:55 PM by higherbrainpattern
Lack of lines doesn't make a character less complex. Groot had plenty of depth to him and he never said more than three words at a time. The Sandman having more complexity is a case where it was to the detriment of the film, by slowing down a overstuffed story and then making a clear-cut case of right and wrong more than vague than it should be. ('I have a sick daughter! I am not bad for killing people!') And what does the Sandman have to do with Winter Soldier vs. The Dark Knight?
I don't mind a movie where the meaning of everything isn't spelled out for me. The Dark Knight made sure you knew full well what the themes of each characters were via speeches and speeches. Finding new things each time around rewatching the Winter Soldier rather than getting it all the first time is why I keep finding it interesting.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:50:52 PM by Tuckerscreator
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A character not having any lines doesn't make them any less deep than one who does have a lot of lines. While I somewhat agree with you that Bucky is kind of a bland silent badass who was Out of Focus, citing his lack of lines as the main flaw is a bit of a stretch.
To quote Ursula, "Don't underestimate the importance of body language!"
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edited 12th Mar '15 3:49:51 PM by HisInfernalMajesty
"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."To be honest, I actually prefer the film's more silent Bucky. The comics Winter Soldier spoke more and even snarked at times, but in the process he felt more independent and well adjusted than a brainwashed soldier would be. The film Bucky is quiet enough that you're looking for any vestige of humanity left on him, and it's made scarily clear how thorough Hydra's methods are.
edited 12th Mar '15 3:53:45 PM by Tuckerscreator
The issue with Bucky wasn't his lack of lines, it was the fact that he was brainwashed into a mute solider for the side of evil, which is not an emotionally complex situation. He's Bane from Batman & Robin, more or less. Now, I fully expect Bucky to gain some emotional complexity now that he's running around free in the world, but looking at Winter Solider on its own, he doesn't have any.
If Bucky had spoken some lines, they could at least make it look like he was brainwashed into believing Hydra's ideals. It would've added a lot to his character, in my opinion. Instead he comes across as a helpless victim turned into a weapon and nothing more.
x4 It's possible for a viewer to put more thought into a story than the authors themselves did. There was nothing in Winter Solider that was written in such a way that it invited deeper thought from the audience. The good guys won, the bad guys lost, Steve will probably go on a date with that Sharon girl, the viewer gives themselves a pat on the back, the end, and they can go home happy (unless they stick around for the after-credits to learn that, GASP, there are more bad guys for Cap to fight!). If the viewer wants to analyze the movie for deeper meaning, they can, but that's not the creator's intent and (as far as I'm concerned) not the "point" of the movie.
edited 12th Mar '15 4:01:52 PM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.Okay, I usually don't do that because I have too much respect to the people to love it and I can understand it on some level - but I don't like the Dark Knight. Or, to rephrase that, I love Heath Ledger's performance because it is so unusual and chilling, but everything else pretty much falls flat to me. "I am the hero the city needs, but the one it deserves." what does that even mean? Even if they want to protect the reputation of Harvey Dent, there is no reason why they can't claim that the Joker was behind everything. The whole thing is so overly melodramatic that it just puts me off.
What exactly is this movie supposed to tell me? That Gotham is full of corrupt people? I don't even feel inclined to think about it, because I know the second I start to really think about it, I know that the whole construct falls apart.
And that's why I think that "The Winter Soldier" is a vastly superior movie. Because when I start to think about it, it doesn't fall apart, quite the opposite. Every time I watch it, I discover another layer, something I missed beforehand. Even if it is just a detail in the decoration of Steve's flat.
And I don't think that the movie says "that is bad". It says "there is a line, and you have to be really careful not to cross it". When Pierce does his little speech about "what would you do if you knew that this would happen and you could prevent it" - isn't the first impulse to say "yes, I would want to prevent this from happening"? It is not about "where is the line" but about showing how easy it is to cross said line. Fury, Natasha, Pierce, they all mean well, and yet they all lost the view of the line.
You make it sound like he didn't talk at all. Good examples of his characterization are just after Cap recognizes him after their battle, or when Pierce is lecturing him in prep for the final battle, or Sam and Steve discuss what to do when they encounter him again. In the first case Bucky visibly falters for a moment because he's starting to recognize Steve, only to force himself to forget it when he tries to shoot him again. In the second case we see Pierce has to talk him into believing what he's doing is right, so Bucky is aware to an extent of what his actions are. And the third case deals with the issue of whether or not it would be more merciful to put him down, because he may not have the capacity to be redeemed anymore.
edited 12th Mar '15 4:08:16 PM by Tuckerscreator
The problem with Captain America 2 was that it was really good when it was trying to be a spy movie and really bad at being a superhero movie. So at the end when they dropped the spy movie pretense for a big long action sequence in an attempt to outdo The Avengers, it fell flat and was completely unnecessary.
The best action scene in the movie was at the very beginning, and it basically was just a punching contest between Cap and Batroc, but it was a fun fight with lots of character. The fight with Bucky at the end, which should have been a major part of the movie almost felt like an afterthought because they remembered the movie was called Winter Soldier and needed them to fight. It was just buried under so much other stuff going on at the end and wasn't engaging at all.
Mix that with "Winter Soldier should have been nominated for the Best Picture Oscar!!!" levels of hype, and you've got a recipe for hype backlash.
When Bucky is about to get mind-wiped, he's clearly in the process of remembering who he is and who Captain America is. "That man on the bridge—I knew him." In fact, it's implied this happens routinely to Bucky. Every couple of times he's thawed from the ice and sent out on missions into the field, HYDRA reprograms him in order to prevent him memory from resurfacing time and time again.
So yeah, Bucky as the Winter Soldier does have characterization and shows the extent of the trauma he's faced because of his brainwashing in that scene.
edited 12th Mar '15 4:11:46 PM by higherbrainpattern
I kinda do wish TWS had explored the debate of freedom vs security a little bit more, which is why I'm really conflicted on the whole Hydra infiltration thing. On one hand, I thought it was cool and threatening, but on the other hand, I thought it cheapened the movie by giving an easy way out of that debate and making Captain America always right.
When we're done, there won't be anything left.![]()
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I remember those moments, but I feel they ultimately boil down to "Bucky tries to resist brainwashing, fails."
I'm sorry, but I really don't like brainwashing as a plot device in stories. Brainwashing a character to make them evil is such lazy writing. I would've loved it if, somehow, Bucky's "death" in the first movie had caused him to turn into a major cynic, and Cap had given him a pep talk or something that opened Bucky's eyes. That would've made for a much more powerful fight scene at the end. The whole "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight trope is nothing but cheap conflict in my opinion.
edited 12th Mar '15 4:12:01 PM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.

Still complex in comparison to Winter Soldier.
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.