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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28676: Mar 7th 2015 at 8:42:00 AM

In AoS, it was also one of the stupidest character deaths I've ever seen even if you ignore the fact of Tripp still having story to tell. Tripp spinkicks the crystal after Raina and Skye have already coccooned, causing it to explode and kill him, and accomplishing nothing. He dies like a f*cking moron after attempting to employ violence on an unknown piece of alien phlebotinum, benefitting nobody and contributing nothing to the plot.

In the middle of an intense and long-foreshadowed scene for one of the major characters, this moment exists just so they can kill someone off during it, and naturally, one of the two black guys is the first on the chopping block.

edited 7th Mar '15 8:43:30 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#28677: Mar 7th 2015 at 8:55:38 AM

[up] Don't disagree there. But it would be just as stupid no matter what.

It's not directly a coincidence that Rhodey and Nick Fury are the most expendable, it is the result of Marvel adding a lot of minority characters as extras to make up for the white male leads. Iron man's two most important side-kicks are female (Pepper) and black (Rhodey). Thor's most important sidekicks are female (Jane, Darcy and Sif) and between the Asgardians is a Black and an Asian character. Captain America's most important sidekicks are female (Peggy), black (Sam) with Bucky being the only non-minority sidekick if you discount him being short of one arm.

And when you look at the Agents, we have black (Nick Fury), female (Maria Hill, Agent 13), with Coulson being the only named straight white male Agent, and he got "killed off" first.

Btw, if you had asked me before Winter Soldier, Nick Fury wouldn't have been on my "I would okay with him getting killed off" list, it's the feeling of conclusion I have concerning the character now which caused this assessment.

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#28678: Mar 7th 2015 at 8:58:27 AM

Nick Fury's still probably safe, as he still has movies on his contract. Not to mention that they already faked killing him off in Winter Soldier, doing it for real here would feel like a serious case of bridge-dropping.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#28679: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:04:32 AM

Funny enough Fury did die in the comics around the time WS came out only it was the old white Fury who was killed by Bucky with the black one still alive and well since they need him so that the comics can reflect the movies.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#28680: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:06:13 AM

[up]That turned out to be a fakeout. He's still alive but is the new Watcher.

Funny enough it seems Renner and Evans were cryptically talking about this on Twitter before the announcement.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#28681: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:12:44 AM

[up]Man, Original Sin was bad because I didn't remember that. Only thing I can remember of that event was a guy with an eye for his head, Loki and Thor kicking angel butt and finding their sister and Bendis finally revealing what happened in the Cancerverse that allowed Drax, Peter and Thanos to come back without Richard(retcons on how Peter's Cosmic Cube worked, retcons on how the Cancerverse worked and retcons that made Death suddenly disappear even though that was the whole reason Thanos was in that universe turned out to be the case).

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#28682: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:14:31 AM

In any case, unless you go after the six main Avengers, which is pretty much impossible because they are still needed in future movies, you have the pick between a "minority" character or Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. And I doubt that they will get rid of them that fast.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28683: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:15:54 AM

Cancerverse reveal:

Thanos, Star-Lord, and Nova remained in the Cancerverse fighting over the Cosmic Cube. A returned Drax joined the brawl against the Mad Titan. After Star-Lord starting losing control over the Cube, Thanos offered Quill to give him the Cube, as he could control it to get back to Earth-616.[10] However, Star-Lord killed Thanos with it. As Thanos reappeared and killed Star-Lord from behind, who also returned, the heroes discovered death was impossible in the Cancerverse, as one would merely respawn in another location.

After killing Thanos for a third time, the heroes' discussion on what to do was interrupted by the arrival of the Cancerverse's Revengers. Following an extremely long battle, the Revengers got hold of the Cosmic Cube.[11] Thanos managed to retrieve the Cube and defeat the Revengers, but was soon opposed by Drax, Quill, and Nova. While the Mad Titan was distracted by Drax, Nova picked up the Cosmic Cube and decided to use it along with the Nova Force to open a gate to Earth-616. However, Rider couldn't come along as he was acting as the door between the two universes. As his last wish, Nova asked Peter not to tell Gamora about this event, as it would devastate her.

Peter Quill, Drax and Thanos were then returned to Earth-616.

It is awful. Like, its convoluted, kind of slapsticky and it ignores the situation the characters were left in. Its the height of arrogance to suggest that I could do better than a published author so I'll just say that a ten-year old could.

Oh, also Spider-Verse spun out of Original Sin. And the All-New All-Different Thor.

edited 7th Mar '15 9:23:57 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#28684: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:23:14 AM

[up][up]Or you could just not kill them period. I'm still not sure why everyone keeps expecting to see one of the heroes die.

[up]It was so dumb and also not worth the wait. They kept building up Richard's death as an epic secret but honestly saying "Yeah he died" would have served the same purpose and been less stupid.

edited 7th Mar '15 9:25:22 AM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#28685: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:30:27 AM

So what this boils down to is that all the white people are too important to kill off, therefore the minorities should die in their place?

That's a really good argument for just not killing anyone at this time, because the franchise has done such a poor job of diversity that there is no good way to do it. Black people should not be treated as logs, used to stoke the flames of drama for all the pretty white folks, and in a world where the only expendable folks are black, that's what that is.

edited 7th Mar '15 9:31:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#28686: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:41:53 AM

[up][up]It's even worse since all the pieces for another volume of Got G were still there since only the founders of the team died but the team members were all(mostly)still alive but shaken. Hell, Rocket was still alive and he was Peter's second in command and could've been the main hero of another volume but no, they needed Peter, Drax and Thanos back since they had a movie in the works and the comics must reflect the movies.

The original ending to the Guardians is still the best way to end the story of the time when Cosmic Marvel was as important as Earth to the universe.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#28687: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:44:55 AM

The good thing is since the next movie is expanding the cast it could persuade Marvel to do something with some of the Guardians who fell by the wayside again.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28688: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:47:51 AM

Or they could just expand the cast anyway. Do you see Hyperion in the movies?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#28689: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:52:50 AM

GotG 2 needs to flesh out the original GotG movie's cast first before they throw another two or three characters into the mix. I'd rather see them elaborate on Gamora's backstory and Drax's revenge plot as opposed to having the movie open with a cocoon that explodes and starts screaming, "HI I'M ADAM WARLOCK HERE'S FIVE BILLION NEW PLOT THREADS!"

edited 7th Mar '15 9:56:20 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#28690: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:52:58 AM

RE: The Rhodey should be killed off because he's boring, I agree that his characterization has not been very good and that the reason he has few fans has less to do with his race and more to do with the fact that he's frankly extremely dull. It's extra disappointing to me because he was one of my favorite heroes as a kid. But it's not like he doesn't have the potential to become a great character. I thought Iron Man 3 gave some inklings of how interesting he can be.

I view Rhodey as being in the same position as Hawkeye. Sure Hawkeye didn't get much chance to shine, but people are hoping for his survival anyway because he deserves better than to be a Mauve Shirt. Rhodey deserves the same consideration. Everybody else has pointed out the racial Unfortunate Implications enough times I don't need to repeat them, but killing him (or any of the less developed white characters) for the sake of cheap drama when he's got much more to offer is just a sign of sloppy writing period.

edited 7th Mar '15 9:53:08 AM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#28691: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:54:34 AM

I don't think that they have to kill off someone in Age of Ultron...I am just saying if it does happen, Rhodey or Nick Fury would be the logical choice from a storytelling point of view. But sooner or later Avengers will die for real or at least fade out of the universe.

I wonder what you can do with Rhodey outside of the Avengers movies...He is not popular or well realized enough to carry his own movie, and there won't be anymore Iron Man movies. Sure, Tony will turn up in other movies, but side-kicks (and that's what Rhodey is, a side-kick) are for main and not for supporting characters. Pepper is pretty much in the same position, btw, as it stands, she might be a cameo character at best in the near future. But she is at the very least the CEO of an important company in the universe. Rhodey is just a soldier. He is practically walking canon fodder. Especially now that RDJ seems to be open to play the role of Iron Man for longer. One guy in an iron suit is enough for Marvel's needs.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:00:24 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#28692: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:57:49 AM

[up][up][up]IMO it's possible to do both. The major problem with superhero sequels introducing new characters is that they go in way too many different directions so that you feel like you're watching two different movies.

You can have new members on the team and satisfying character development if you keep the narrative focused.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#28693: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:58:33 AM

They should introduce and promptly kill off Grasshopper.

"Avengers, looks like you should use some-" blammo

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#28695: Mar 7th 2015 at 9:59:34 AM

[up]x6 What more needs to be revealed about MCU!Gamora? She had a shitty childhood due to Thanos and wants to kill him. The comics version had her entire race killed by fanatics before Thanos took her in.

Drax's revenge plot is prime material for whenever they end up fighting Thanos but it isn't something that the movie is going to have to spend time on. The only thing that the movie needs to do is have Drax charge at Thanos screaming things like "This is for my family!" before ripping his heart out/being knocked aside. They aren't going to have half an hour exposition about how angry Drax is at Thanos.

Btw, this is what the creator of Thanos have to say about his inspirations for him:

"Kirby had done the New Gods, which I thought was terrific. He was over at DC at the time. I came up with some things that were inspired by that. You'd think that Thanos was inspired by Darkseid, but that was not the case when I showed up. In my first Thanos drawings, if he looked like anybody, it was Metron. I had all these different gods and things I wanted to do, which became Thanos and the Titans. Roy took one look at the guy in the Metron-like chair and said": "Beef him up! If you're going to steal one of the New Gods, at least rip off Darkseid, the really good one!"

edited 7th Mar '15 10:04:45 AM by LordofLore

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#28696: Mar 7th 2015 at 10:00:06 AM

[up]x4 Yeah, that's what concerns me about Avengers 2. Why are Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in this movie again? It kinda feels like they're just here for no other reason than that they're iconic Avengers characters. The narrative seems like it's trying to make them relevant by having them side with Ultron, but I don't see why Ultron would really need them or why they would agree with the robot who clearly wants to wipe out all life. I'm worried the two plot threads won't mesh together and the writers will just force it for the sake of brevity.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:00:48 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#28697: Mar 7th 2015 at 10:01:46 AM

[up]We'll see...they are certainly there in order to replace some of the characters which won't be available past infinity war.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#28698: Mar 7th 2015 at 10:02:26 AM

[up]x7 Even so, although Rhodey's powerset is similar to Iron Man's I'm personally of the opinion that he's more valuable than Hawkeye, simply because as a heroic agent of the US government and military he offers a lot of storytelling and characterization potential other characters don't. The other people in his position are villains, like General Ross, or long dead, like Phillips and all the other SSR members. Whereas even if Hawkeye gets a lot of stuff to do, he's ultimately just another (ex-)SHIELD agent and we have a lot of others to take his place.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:03:08 AM by AlleyOop

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#28699: Mar 7th 2015 at 10:04:58 AM

@spashthebandragon Might have something to do with the fact that they're also introducing Vision in this movie too, although there's no way they'll be able to develop anything beyond the beginning of a relationship in this movie. Really, my big worry is that all of Marvel's films going forward are in danger of having to deal with too many plot threads. Civil War is already shaping up to be a delicate balancing act even with only a tiny fraction of the original event's cast.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#28700: Mar 7th 2015 at 10:06:14 AM

What more needs to be revealed about MCU!Gamora? She had a shitty childhood due to Thanos and wants to kill him. Drax's revenge plot is prime material for whenever they end up fighting Thanos but it isn't something that the movie is going to have to spend time on. The only thing that the movie needs to do is have Drax charge at Thanos screaming things like "This is for my family!" before ripping his heart out/being knocked aside. They aren't going to have half an hour exposition about how angry Drax is at Thanos.

But what about making the audience care about the characters? Maybe Gamora has some psychological damage from her crappy childhood which strains her relationship with Star-Lord? Maybe Drax is driven to despair because all his loved ones are dead and he has to find the inner strength to keep fighting? If they just skim over the characters' backstories and motivations to make room for new and unrelated concepts, it's going to beg the question why these characters are in the movie in the first place and why we should care about them. The reason GotG is such a good movie is because it used the characters as vehicles for funny jokes while also hinting at deeper characterizations. I just want those hints to pay off instead of being swept aside for more one-note jokes.

[up]I'm totally fine with Vision being in the movie. It'd be pretty hard to include Vision without making him relevant, really.

edited 7th Mar '15 10:08:18 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.

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