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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#27951: Mar 1st 2015 at 5:03:45 AM

Are you really saying that being white and male is one of the biggest defining characteristics of Doctor Strange?
Actually I'm pretty sure his biggest defining characteristic is being in possession of a glorious mustache and occasional stylish beard.

The Blog The Art
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27952: Mar 1st 2015 at 5:45:28 AM

Are you really saying that being white and male is one of the biggest defining characteristics of Doctor Strange?

You know the really funny thing? When I wrote that comparison, the main factor in my mind was Strange's age, hence the early twenties comment. Strange is supposed to be an already veteran doctor, a man soured and turned cynical by life, by the time he becomes a sorcerer and that changes his life and his outlook on existence. That is one of his core defining traits, one that is mostly overlooked because we all are trapped in the Political Correction Gone Mad pitfall of only looking on gender and race, and that is just lost when you cast someone as young as Michelle Rodriguez. But yeah, when you add a changed race and gender on top of that, why aren't you doing an all new character instead? Or I don't know, at least make her Clea instead of pretending she's Stephen Strange with breasts.

I could get the reasoning behind Older Woman Strange, as long as she gets the basic same background as Stephen. I can't see the reason behind a young female from another race and then pretending she's still the basically same Dr. Strange. It's like a wealthy Spider-Man who starts in his fifties. A key part of the Spider-Man concept is he's a struggling young man.

And on that topic- why do we always focus obsessively on gender and race alone? Because that's what the social agenda has conditioned us to? If we are being inclusive, why don't we ever think of age, of social levels? Why don't anyone ever think about a senior citizen movie superhero, for starters? Or an obese one who isn't played for laughs? Or gay ones, since we're at it? Or one who is poor, and I don't mean Peter Parker poor, I mean really in economical need poor? Small people, and thank God for Peter Dinklage, but still? Or an illegal alien? Because that's too touchy a subject? It's kind of a bitter laugh we struggle for 'variety' when it's still the same 'socially accepted' variety. Where are my ugly superheroes in the MCU, then? Oh, it's okay to cast people from all races and genders, as long as they all look like Hollywood glamorous stars. Yeah, that's the key to true variety, and once that's achieved we've reached true equality for everyone who matters.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27953: Mar 1st 2015 at 6:17:59 AM

To me Dr. Stranges first characteristic is that before his accident he lead a charmed life, never a seatback, always on the way to success. And since the straight white male has it easier on the way to the top than anyone else, it would make sense for me that the character is one. The doctor who isn't a doctor because he wants to help, but because he is the best in what he does (I just realized, Dr. House is Dr. Strange).

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27954: Mar 1st 2015 at 7:12:49 AM

The logic's airtight to me. It is kind of insulting to make minorities rely on the reputation of heroes who have been portrayed as white, as opposed to having them rely on their own unique reputations, ya'know?

The thing is that for whatever reason, the studios continually choose not to use actual, existing minority heroes. So if my choice is gonna be between minority actors "stealing" white people's roles or ya know, just a continuous stream of white people, I'll go with the former.

I mean it's taken 10 years for Marvel to finally do a Black Panther movie and the Avengers STILL consist of nothing but white people. If nobody is gonna take the time to try and introduce more heroes of color the racebending the white folks they've chosen to use mitigates the issue at least somewhat.

I mean without Sam Jackson's Fury the MCU's first two phases would've been even whiter than they already are.

In fact my only real issue with her video is that she frames it as an issue of minorities needing "make their own" instead of DC and Marvel already having a decent number of non-white heroes who simply aren't being used in the movies.

edited 1st Mar '15 7:16:19 AM by comicwriter

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27955: Mar 1st 2015 at 7:38:21 AM

Also the notion that white actors are having their roles "stolen" is so laughably absurd that I initially wasn't gonna dignify it with a response but trust me, the number of white people turned to minorities in superhero films? That's a fucking drop in the ocean compared to all the roles for white actors in Hollywood.

Sam Jackson "stole" a white man's role? Well those hypothetical white actors were in luck! Every other character in the Avengers was white so that's good news for white actors seeking roles!

edited 1st Mar '15 7:42:20 AM by comicwriter

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#27956: Mar 1st 2015 at 7:53:28 AM

@ Swanpride

Concerning replacing pre-existing characters with new, non-white ones... I am of two minds. I usually dislike it with the highly prolific characters which have been established for ages.

I agree. Since we're about to get Spider-Man for MCU, we should go with Parker.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27957: Mar 1st 2015 at 7:53:49 AM

The thing is that for whatever reason, the studios continually choose not to use actual, existing minority heroes. So if my choice is gonna be between minority actors "stealing" white people's roles or ya know, just a continuous stream of white people, I'll go with the former.

A logical fallacy operating within the framework of a bigger obliging logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy. The solution isn't countering a bad step with another bad step and hoping two wrongs will make a right, which they never do; it's fixing the original bad step in the first place, which won't happen as long as people continue keeping the secondary bad steps as well.

edited 1st Mar '15 7:54:53 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27958: Mar 1st 2015 at 7:54:31 AM

Well, it makes sense to start with the B-listers and then work down to the C and D listers and see what sticks. One shouldn't forget that a large part why characters like Batman, Superman, Spiderman or the Hulk are so well known is because they got successful TV and movie adaptations at one point. I really don't mind Marvel building up on what they have in order to give other characters a push. A process like this takes time, though. I am satisfied with leaning back and watching Marvel trying to figure it out, as long as I get the impression that they are moving into the right direction. And I might not want Sam Wilson to become Captain America, but if they write him as good as they have so far, I would certainly be behind a Falcon Movie at one point.

I am actually more pissed off with Fox, because they have a bunch of colourful characters with the X-men, and yet constantly side-line them and undermine the diversity of this franchise by turning it into the Wolverine Show. And with DC, because...well, as bad as Marvel is concerning diversity in their comics, I get the impression that DC is even worse.

edited 1st Mar '15 7:56:37 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27959: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:12:02 AM

[up][up]And I disagree because I generally don't have a problem with racebending white guys into minorities in the first place. So I don't consider it a bad step.

And I certainly don't consider it "two wrongs". White people can handle having one less character in a movie full of white people.

I am satisfied with leaning back and watching Marvel trying to figure it out, as long as I get the impression that they are moving into the right direction.

Cool. I'm not. I'm tired of diversity being something that can "come later" after all the white folks get their time to shine.

edited 1st Mar '15 8:13:52 AM by comicwriter

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27960: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:17:43 AM

Diversity shouldn't be forced, which is actually a slight on the ethnic group you would be thinking you would be favoring. It's something that must come naturally.

edited 1st Mar '15 8:18:04 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27961: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:21:51 AM

Introducing new heroes who are minorities would be forced. Unlike rescheduling your movieverse to cram Spider-Man in. Got it.

edited 1st Mar '15 8:31:06 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27963: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:31:30 AM

[up][up]The reason why they had to "cram" Spider-man in is because they have to consider Sony's needs. They have to release a Spider-man movie every three years, or they loose the rights. So either Marvel ties Spider-man in now or there is no deal.

edited 1st Mar '15 8:31:43 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27964: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:33:04 AM

It's still "forced". Here's the thing. "Diversity happening naturally" is a bullshit notion. All of this is fiction and what goes on is entirely up to the creative heads. That they aren't working with heroes of color is no more an organic choice than choosing to include some would be.

It's all fake anyway.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27965: Mar 1st 2015 at 8:38:30 AM

[up]It's not easy for a writer to write about a foreign culture without coming off as insulting in some way or another, though. To me the problem is more that the comic book writers write what they feel comfortable with, but that most of the comic book writers are straight white guys.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27966: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:14:17 AM

I'd like to think my culture and ethnocentric group have more dignity and pride than to gladly take reimagined leftovers from others just to fill a PC-executively commanded quota.

edited 1st Mar '15 9:15:07 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27967: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:18:56 AM

And guess what? I'm a minority too and appreciate Fury and Heimdall. That's the thing about anecdotal evidence. Given that most people aren't comic book readers it's unlikely that in most cases they're gonna even be aware it's "leftovers" save for very high profile cases.

edited 1st Mar '15 9:19:42 AM by comicwriter

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27968: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:24:03 AM

Djimon Hounsou as Korath:
A Kree ally of Ronan who is a feared intergalactic hunter. As to why he took the role Hounsou said, "I have a four-year old son who loves superheroes from Spider-Man to Iron Man to Batman. He's got all the costumes. One day he looks at me and says 'Dad, I want to be light-skinned so I could be Spider-Man. Spider-Man has light skin.' That was sort of a shock. This is why I am excited to be a part of the Marvel Universe, so I could hopefully provide that diversity in the role of the superhero."

So, mileage may vary. It may not be important for some but its very important for others.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#27969: Mar 1st 2015 at 9:29:49 AM

It's not easy for a writer to write about a foreign culture without coming off as insulting in some way or another, though.
Then hire more writers from that culture- fucking two birds one stone.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27970: Mar 1st 2015 at 10:07:48 AM

So this stuck out to me after this forum had a brief movement claiming Michelle Rodriguez should play Doctor Strange. Basically she denied rumors claiming she would play Green Lantern and said "stop stealing all the white people's superheroes; make up your own." So naturally there was a bunch of offense about that, and she clarified today she wasn't saying minorities shouldn't play superheroes, just that it'd be more creative to make new heroes for them than Race Lift American ones.

I see her point but am kinda mixed on it.

Not many people are talented enough to shoot themselves in the foot while also putting their foot in their mouth, but I see where she's coming from.

I think her follow-up comment hit the nail on the head, in that you probably won't attract many fans (new or old) by radically changing an established character, but creating a new character with good writing (Kamala) can create new fans and sell books and give everyone a new perspective.

edited 1st Mar '15 10:30:28 AM by VeryMelon

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27971: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:37:57 AM

[up][up]That was exactly my point. If you want more diversity in the stories, you need more diversity in the writers.

[up] I agree. If you try to change a popular and long established character, the result will always be that the new version is just "the other" version, with a note of "the inferior" to it. If you do such a change, you have to go for a character who hasn't risen to a certain level of popularity yet. A female Captain Marvel in Carol Danvers mostly works because the male Captain Marvel was not firmly established and never part of an adaptation. Moving in Kamala as Ms. Marvel works because the spot was left vacant (kind of like Robin got replaceable once Dick Grayson became Nightwing. A black Nick Fury worked because the only live-action adaptation of the character beforehand was the one with David Hasselhoff (may it stay forgotten). Nobody cares if Peggy Carter is suddenly a brunette, because she was a very minor character anyway beforehand. In this realm, there is a lot of room for diversity, which will eventually lead to some of the characters risen to new fame if they are better than their previous versions.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#27972: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:43:11 AM

I should also point out that that argument fails on a pretty basic level to begin with. No writer has "experienced" being a superhero, or living in medieval europe, or fighting dragons, or taking down a neo-cyberpunk transhumanist regime. People can, and pretty much always do write about things they haven't experienced.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#27973: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:48:14 AM

Last time the original holder of the Captain Marvel title had the title was 33 years ago when he(Mar-Vell)died due to cancer(The evil version from the Cancerverse is called Lord Mar-Vell instead of Captain since he rules that universe). Others have had the title over the years but it took 32 years for Carol to get the title.

Mark Millar talks about Civil War, Spider-Man and Fury.

edited 1st Mar '15 11:49:32 AM by LordofLore

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27974: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:49:41 AM

[up][up] The difference is that there are no Superheroes in real life, which gives the writers the freedom to do what they want, more or less. They can set the rules themselves. But writing about a different culture (let's assume when people talk about diversity they want more than just a character painted in a different colour) means you are writing about something which does exist in real live, meaning that you better know what you are talking about or someone will accuse you of misrepresenting.

edited 1st Mar '15 11:50:00 AM by Swanpride

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#27975: Mar 1st 2015 at 11:52:36 AM

See: stories about the (non-Marvel) Civil War, or World War II, or the English Bourgeois.

People write about real things they haven't experienced all the time, too. And you know how? They research it. They learn all they can from other people who've written about it. Yes, I would prefer there be more writers that aren't white dudes, but white dudes being white dudes isn't an excuse to not write stories about people that aren't white dudes.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."

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