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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#27901: Feb 28th 2015 at 4:19:28 PM

[up] I'm personally betting that the announcement will be Spidey casting news plus announcement he'll be in either Age of Ultron as a end-credits cameo or Civil War.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27902: Feb 28th 2015 at 4:56:59 PM

If it's Spider-Man related, I don't think it will be casting.

It will be the title. And maybe a director. All the MCU movies through 2020 have titles, but the new Spider-Man doesn't.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#27903: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:08:32 PM

I wonder if Malakith's army could have defeated Ronan's army if neither one had access to the Stones.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27904: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:11:10 PM

Depends on if we're counting Korath and Nebula as part of Ronan's army.

If not, then Malekith would've stomped all over them, thanks to Algrim.

Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#27905: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:14:35 PM

[up]Counting Korath, not counting Nebula.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#27906: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:29:18 PM

[up][up]Was Korath that much of a big deal? I remember him as an important lieutenant, but not as someone particularly powerful or even skilled. He was someone who led troops, not someone who could fight an army by himself. Algrim, meanwhile, faced Thor himself.

At any rate, I would place my bets on Malekith's army if only because they seem to be on par with Asgardians in strength. Ronan's army seemed more mundane overall.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#27907: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:36:15 PM

Korath was nothing special, no.

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27908: Feb 28th 2015 at 5:57:59 PM

I don't know if the Dark Elves were quite on par with Asgardians in strength but they sure did have some nifty laser guns.

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27909: Feb 28th 2015 at 6:42:47 PM

I dunno, Korath did some pretty high jumps at the start of Guardians, and gave those who weren't Drax trouble.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#27911: Feb 28th 2015 at 8:22:34 PM

Just wanted to point out that even Iron Man 2, the only one to have helmetless Iron Man, also had completely unsuited Tony Stark. Just forgot to bring that up before.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#27912: Feb 28th 2015 at 8:37:04 PM

[up][up][up]But even Drax didn't seems as powerful as Thor. The others were much inferior.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#27913: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:01:05 PM

In the end Drax kinda struck me as having the same powerset as Mr. Furious, more or less.

edited 28th Feb '15 9:01:26 PM by KnownUnknown

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#27914: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:02:18 PM

GOTG 2: In which the Blue Raja and the Shoveler join the team.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27915: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:04:18 PM

Mystery Men-Great Lakes Avengers crossover when.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27916: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:28:14 PM

So this stuck out to me after this forum had a brief movement claiming Michelle Rodriguez should play Doctor Strange. Basically she denied rumors claiming she would play Green Lantern and said "stop stealing all the white people's superheroes; make up your own." So naturally there was a bunch of offense about that, and she clarified today she wasn't saying minorities shouldn't play superheroes, just that it'd be more creative to make new heroes for them than Race Lift American ones.

I see her point but am kinda mixed on it.

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27917: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:29:38 PM

As a fellow Latino, I fully stand behind Ms. Rodriguez decision.

Although it should be said a lot of Latinos are white, especially in countries like Argentina and Chile, which often is ignored because Hollywood still thinks of Latin America as a single Spainxico with dashes of Brazil.

edited 28th Feb '15 9:33:35 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27918: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:33:03 PM

As a Latino myself, I think it depends. On one hand, creating new characters is certainly a good choice and makes their ethnicity more than just a different paint job (which actually is what happened to Green Lantern, by introducing Jon Stewart instead of Hal Jordan). On the other hand, there's ways of doing a Race Lift that don't come off as just arbitrary. Nick Fury is a good example; his story about his grandpa and how the fake cops bait him for the assassination attempt are both elements that wouldn't have been the same if he were white.

edited 28th Feb '15 9:33:47 PM by Tuckerscreator

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27919: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:34:21 PM

We all know where I stand on this. Introduce more minority characters by any means possible, even if it means taking some away from white people.

Having reiterated that, I'm going to skip the bit where I become an angry zealot on the subject and piss everyone off.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#27920: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:35:39 PM

There must be a limit to everything. If you end up with a Dr. Strange that is a Latino woman in her early twenties, you should just step back and realize this is Dr. Strange In Name Only.

edited 28th Feb '15 9:35:48 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

HisInfernalMajesty Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
#27921: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:37:15 PM

The cinema sins guy made a similar point in one of his "Dear Hollywood" videos, basically saying it's more insulting to have minorities take up the mantle of a Legacy Character to make them more relevant, as opposed to making existing minority heroes more relevant and interesting, or introduce new ones. He used the example of Falcon becoming Captain America, and how it's a shame that we lost one of the cool black superheroes and stuck him in a white guy's costume.

The logic's airtight to me. It is kind of insulting to make minorities rely on the reputation of heroes who have been portrayed as white, as opposed to having them rely on their own unique reputations, ya'know?

edited 28th Feb '15 9:38:57 PM by HisInfernalMajesty

"A king has no friends. Only subjects and enemies."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#27922: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:38:23 PM

That's my basic opinion as well.

I feel like Race Lifting white characters and stories and pointing to those as black/latino/etc representation, as apposed to developing and supporting black characters and/or creations is self-defeating - as all it does is continue the notion that black characters couldn't be successful on their own, and comes with the serious implication that the only possible way a black character can be marketable is if they're actually a white character.

Likewise, it rarely amounts to anything due to the fact that adaptation race lifts will straight up never last for big name characters, are an easy way to give companies a token to point to without making any actual progress, and in the end are often just plain insulting to the viewers' intelligence.

Race Lifts are a band aid. That's all. They should be considered a serious means of challenging the lack of diversity in the film medium, and ideally should not be done simply for the sake of having an ethnic character in a work (that is to say, there should be a real reason for it - like, say, because Idris Elba is awesome as hell).

edited 28th Feb '15 9:44:07 PM by KnownUnknown

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27923: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:48:16 PM

Nick Fury doesn't really help your case here.

MCU!Nick Fury is based on Ultimate Nick Fury. Ultimate Nick Fury is based on Samuel L. Jackson, because the Ultimate Universe did a lot of things differently for seemingly no reason, and Sam Jackson is cool. Pretty much the sole stipulation for using Jackson's likeness was him being the first call to play the character if he ever appeared in a movie.

MCU!Fury is black because Sam Jackson is a huge nerd, not because it adds something to the character. tongue

Taking this argument three steps forward on my own, instead of waiting for the thread to get around to it, one could argue that it doesn't matter what the initial reason was, because Fury has depth related to the fact that he's a black man. Which is true, and a good point. However, one could also counter that, saying it took six appearances across a total of nine movies for that to come into play, whereas taking Ms. Rodriguez's advice would allow for that kind of depth right out of the gate. Which can, of course, be responded to with the fact that Fury is really a minor or supporting character in all but one of his appearances pre-Winter Soldier, so he doesn't get much focus anyway.

Personally, as a young actor, I kind of like Rodriguez's tactic, because it's basically the same thing I'm told all the time. If nobody's hiring you, go out there and make your own art. If it's good, people might notice. If they don't, then at least you're growing, and learning, and keeping your skills sharp, so the next thing you make will be better, and that might be the one that gets you seen. And so on, until it works or you decide to quit and get a job in retail.

...What was I talking about, again?

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#27924: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:50:48 PM

I don't know, I personally find the Falcon becoming Captain America to be one of the most well-executed and least forced/obnoxious cases of Race Lift via Legacy Character. It's all about how you set it up.

Falcon works as Captain America because he's not just Captain America for the sake of passing the mantle to a black guy. He's believable as Captain America because of his close connection to Steve. Because we've seen this character, we know this character, and we know that if anyone deserves to take up the mantle besides Steve, he is at least one of the most obviously deserving choices, if not the most obvious choice.

Falcon becoming Captain America, to me, is allowing an already interesting character to step up to an even greater mantle, one he clearly deserves. Carol Danvers becoming Captain Marvel is much the same thing. The problem with other Legacy Characters is that they don't seem to care much about set-up. And when they don't take the time to set it up properly, it feels lazy. Diversity is by no means a bad thing, but when you just stick a non-white-male in the mantle of say, Thor? The knee-jerk reaction will be negative. And it's not because people can't stand the idea of Thor as a non-white-male (although that will certainly be the case for some people), it's because this new character, regardless of race or gender, hasn't proven beforehand that they deserve that mantle. And that's why it feels lazy, especially when the non-white-male aspect is heavily advertised in marketing. It seems like a desperate attempt at progressivism by coasting on the reputation of a much more beloved or famous character without doing anything to earn the reputation.

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#27925: Feb 28th 2015 at 9:52:43 PM

Didn't Falcon almost immediately become Captain Fuhrer after donning the mantle?


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