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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#27376: Feb 19th 2015 at 1:08:21 AM

Peggy Carter is in both new Marvel films this year, so Ms. Atwell is doing very well for herself with this role.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27377: Feb 19th 2015 at 1:59:34 AM

Especially when you consider that she is playing a character who is living in a totally different era than the Avengers. She is practically the female Nick Fury, popping up everywhere. I mean, counting the upcoming ones, she now has been in four of the movies and both TV shows.

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#27378: Feb 19th 2015 at 2:04:38 AM

She's a good reference point for the past.

And well, they only had the one movie in that era, so they don't have that many. tongue

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27379: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:18:26 AM

Let's not describe her as "the female Nick Fury".

Peggy Carter was Nick Fury before Nick Fury was Nick Fury. She's the co-founder of SHIELD, and likely its first director.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#27380: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:22:15 AM

So then Nick Fury is a male Peggy Carter?

edited 19th Feb '15 8:27:33 AM by ultimatepheer

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#27381: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:35:15 AM

wild mass guessNick Fury is the son of Peggy Carter and Gabe Jones.wild mass guess

Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27382: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:38:14 AM

Wouldn't that mean that Sharon was Nick's cousin?

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#27384: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:44:09 AM

I'm not because it means Peggy doesn't end up with Angie and I won't have that.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#27385: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:46:07 AM

Unless Angie is Transgender that's impossible. Winter Soldier confirms that Peggy marries a man.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#27386: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:46:50 AM

I don't recall that.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27387: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:52:15 AM

She has exactly one scene, and she mentions her husband.

I don't ship Peggy/Angie anyway. I like them much better as partners-in-crime than as lovers.

You know, I'm surprised the show hasn't taken the opportunity to tease us with Tony's mom at all.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27388: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:52:43 AM

but it is not really surprising that the show is not bursting of them considering the time and that Peggy spends most of her time in the agency and fighting against Russian spies. Not that there weren't black people working as agents back then, but they were the exception, not the rule.
Look, unless you're going to claim that glowing orange implosion grenades and Russian brainwashed child assassins and pen-sized cameras were all crap that existed in the postwar era, "the show's just trying to be historically accurate" is a moot point.

The New York that Peggy lives in draws a lot from reality, but at the base of it it's no more real or less malleable than Asgard or Xandar. It's a world created by people who consciously decided that there would be no important black characters.

edited 19th Feb '15 8:54:33 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27389: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:54:46 AM

It's really not. That's kind of the point of Like Reality, Unless Noted. The existence of fantastic elements is not an excuse to throw everything out the window.

There's also a point to be made that revising history to remove unsavory elements in storytelling is a contributing factor in privileged kids growing up thinking those elements genuinely aren't there. For instance, when every version of the founding of America you've heard was about how the Pilgrims were awesome and openly friendly to the Natives until the Natives started attacking them for no good reason, it's easy to draw conclusions about unrest on the Native American reservations being because "Those f*cking redskins are just pissy that they lost."

A lot of kids get their understanding of history from television and film more than actual classroom study.

edited 19th Feb '15 8:58:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#27390: Feb 19th 2015 at 8:59:00 AM

I doubt they'd let a black man work at the SSR. I don't see anything wrong with a lack of major minority characters because at this point in time America was far less diverse and even when there were minorities around they wouldn't have jobs that would put Peggy in contact with them.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27391: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:01:37 AM

[up][up]I'm not suggesting we remove the historical difficulties black people had from the show, but rather arguing that there's no good reason they can't fudge the numbers on how many black people were in New York at the time if it means Peggy can actually interact with some.

I mean, the Native American population is seriously low, but that shouldn't be an excuse for the abject lack of Native characters in media.

Obviously when you're writing a fictional reality you should try to be socially conscious about it. But it's still, y'know, a fictional reality. The staff isn't beholden to anything, especially things that might make the show less socially conscious.

[up]What? Black people wouldn't have been allowed to work for this fictional secret government agency, and therefore Peggy would never meet them and they'd never get to kick ass?

Well, that's a shame. It's too bad being a member of a fictional government agency is the only way to get involved with crime-fighting. If only this world was chock to the brim with vigilantes, but alas.

edited 19th Feb '15 9:04:18 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#27392: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:02:08 AM

It doesn't have to be with the SSR. Just another civilian character - a friend of Peggy's, maybe?

edited 19th Feb '15 9:05:08 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Canid117 Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#27393: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:05:16 AM

[up][up][up]Also I don't know about anyone else but I would be a little uncomfortable if this show just up and completely swept segregation under the rug.

edited 19th Feb '15 9:05:55 AM by Canid117

"War without fire is like sausages without mustard." - Jean Juvénal des Ursins
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27394: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:06:14 AM

[up]So would I!

Can someone please point me to where I argued that the show should completely ignore any ills suffered by black people in the postwar era? I sure would appreciate it.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#27395: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:06:41 AM

[up][up] I don't believe that New York was segregated, at least not by law.

In any case, it's already not being engaged with, period, so...

edited 19th Feb '15 9:07:49 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27396: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:10:07 AM

The biggest problem I see is that there are three ways to play it.

  • The black character faces none of the prejudice or issues of the times, allowing him to simply be a black supporting character for the cast, but unpleasantly whitewashing over the treatment of black members of society.
  • The black character faces the prejudices of the times, but these prejudices are never addressed, thus leaving the impression that the show itself is kicking him for being a black man rather than an attempt at period accuracy.
  • The black character faces the prejudice of the times and these prejudices are addressed, requiring screentime to explore the Plight of the Black Man to be taken away from Peggy's exploration of the Plight of Women.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27397: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:13:29 AM

[up]I don't really see anything wrong with that third option. It's not like there's absolutely no fat that could be trimmed from the existing narrative to make room.

Or, better yet—make the black character a woman, so that she's got problems that overlap with Peggy's that will keep things thematically consistent.

edited 19th Feb '15 9:14:41 AM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#27398: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:14:21 AM

Nor do I think we need to take an entire season to address it. A few scenes here and there should suffice.

Oh God! Natural light!
Pannic Since: Jul, 2009
#27399: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:15:01 AM

I'll have to give Agent Carter a try. I kinda got bored with SHIELD.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27400: Feb 19th 2015 at 9:17:03 AM

We're not even getting an entire season here. This is a miniseries. Next episode is the finale.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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