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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27276: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:16:48 PM

He already had misgivings about SHIELD even before then. Finding out HYDRA was the root of the cause was just the impetus he needed to strike back at the problem.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27277: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:19:39 PM

No, he disagreed with S.H.I.E.L.D. well in advance of discovering Hydra. He hated their secrecy from the moment he discovered the Hydra weapons in Avengers and kept right on hating them through Winter Soldier. He tried trusting them unconditionally like he would have the Howling Commandos, but Stark proved that trust to be misplaced pretty hard, and Steve was never able to adapt to a less honest way of life.

Cap was never okay with S.H.I.E.L.D.'s way of doing things. He hates spying, he hates deception, he hates secret agendas and deniability and compartmentalization, he hates all of it. Before finding out about Hydra, Steve was even planning on quitting because the way S.H.I.E.L.D. does things and the way Steve does things are so thoroughly incompatible that he just couldn't stand to be there anymore.

At no point does Steve treat dismantling S.H.I.E.L.D. as throwing the baby out with the bathwater; as far as he's concerned, he killed two birds with one stone, because the way he sees it, S.H.I.E.L.D. is just Hydra by a different name.

edited 16th Feb '15 1:20:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27278: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:20:42 PM

His misgivings were rooted in stuff that Fury was doing because he had misgivings, though. He didn't like that Nat had an extra mission objective he didn't know about during the Lemurian Star operation, which was directly related to Fury's suspicions, and he was against Project Insight, which was a HYDRA project, and which he only knew about because Fury showed him the Helicarriers to make sure that yes, being not okay with it is the right thing.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27279: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:22:43 PM

Cap's answer to that would be that Fury should have told him anyway.

Fury's answer to that would be that he didn't know who he could trust.

Cap's answer to that would be that Fury should have trusted him because keeping things secret like this is the reason Hydra got so far in the first place; that none of it would have happened if S.H.I.E.L.D. didn't operate the way they do.

Fury's answer to that would be that honesty would have just gotten him assassinated.

Cap's answer to that would be that secrecy still got him assassinated.

edited 16th Feb '15 1:23:15 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#27280: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:36:03 PM

I find it hard to believe that every single person that approved of or worked on Project Insight was a Hydra agent. They might have had good intentions but Cap still wouldn't have approved whether or not Hydra was involved. Finding out about them just made him go from "Yo, this is pretty fucked up" to "Okay, we need to shut this thing down immediately!"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27281: Feb 16th 2015 at 1:42:08 PM

Indeed. Even before finding out about Hydra, Steve's opinion was cut and dry.

  • Nick Fury: You know, I read those SSR files. "Greatest Generation"? You guys did some nasty stuff.
  • Steve Rogers: Yeah, we compromised. Sometimes in ways that made us not sleep so well. But we did it so that people could be free. This isn't freedom. This is fear.
  • Nick Fury: S.H.I.E.L.D. takes the world as it is, not as we'd like to be. And it's getting damn near past time for you get with that program, Cap.
  • Steve Rogers: Don't hold your breath.

edited 16th Feb '15 1:42:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27282: Feb 16th 2015 at 2:46:41 PM

I think that Steve sees a difference between Shield and Hydra, but also sees that Shield has become a system that allowed Hydra to floorish. So the system had to be removed, even though Peggy was the one who originally founded Shield. He is basically following her advice that sometimes you have to cut you losses and start anew instead of trying to repair what is already rotten from the core.

The interesting thing is that his action might be part of what will lead to civil war. All those gifted people whose information are now out in the open, all those gifted criminals who are now roaming free. It is only a matter of time until this leads to problems.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#27283: Feb 16th 2015 at 2:57:15 PM

I think some of the Cap v Tony might be that old "Tony had all of SHIELD's dirty secrets but missed a damn big one" joke.

Tony stole like, all of the secrets of SHIELD, and then didn't tell anybody it was secretly HYDRA. Sure, he probably didn't even go through the data after the battle of New York, because PTSD, but still

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27284: Feb 16th 2015 at 2:59:43 PM

[up]I highly doubt Tony actually got all of SHIELD's data on the Helicarrier. He would never have kept something as big as HYDRA secret. And an alarm went off the instant his bug went active. Fury could supposedly see everything stored on the Helicarrier and even he had no idea.

On Reddit, RDJ hinted there's legal issues surrounding a cameo appearance, but I think it would be something if Steve Rogers were to turn up in Agents of SHIELD and he and Coulson had a one-to-one about SHIELD 2.0. Coulson has to face the guy he idolizes having distaste for his organization and being the guy who put them all out of a job and on the run, and Steve has to question whether there might be a good place for SHIELD after all and whether it would honor Peggy's work.

If they did, then there might be better relations between Steve's "Secret Avengers" and the new SHIELD come Civil War. Both of them would be underground radicals trying to change the world for the better. Might as well get along.

edited 16th Feb '15 3:01:50 PM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#27285: Feb 16th 2015 at 3:02:51 PM

Why should information about Hydra be on Shields regular database?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#27286: Feb 16th 2015 at 3:05:23 PM

I think Stark did get all the data, but there just wasn't anything Hydra related on there, because Nick Fury's Helicarrier is the WORST place to store confidential information about Hydra. Given how effectively they were able to carry this conspiracy and for how long, I doubt there is much of a paper trail at all, if any.

As noted, Stark probably didn't even go through the data after finding what he needed for his, "I'm sorry, what were you lying?" moment. The lack of Hydra data is more relevant because Fury never found it, because there's not, like, Hydra symbols and "Hail Hydra!" comments plastered all over Fury's database.

edited 16th Feb '15 3:05:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#27287: Feb 16th 2015 at 3:21:50 PM

There were, they just make sure they're all on the left sides of the documents.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#27288: Feb 16th 2015 at 4:09:38 PM

Yeah, we compromised. Sometimes in ways that made us not sleep so well. But we did it so that people could be free.
"Except the Japanese-Americans. Fuck those guys."

edited 16th Feb '15 4:09:53 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27289: Feb 16th 2015 at 4:17:26 PM

I think the Agents of SHIELD thing might be contractual in nature since I doubt they made an effort to sign down the Avengers stars for TV appearances. Not only that but RDJ commands a very high pay grade so to quote one his lines from Iron Man 2, "You couldn't afford [him] anyway."

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#27290: Feb 16th 2015 at 4:22:48 PM

It's probably just contractual. RDJ sounded like he wanted to cameo, and they've managed to have Samuel Jackson guest star twice, who commands just as high a paygrade as Downey.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#27291: Feb 16th 2015 at 4:25:51 PM

I can buy Sam Jack agreeing to appear for less than usual, though I don't know if that's how it actually went down.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#27292: Feb 16th 2015 at 5:07:18 PM

[up][up] No one in this franchise commands as high a pay grade as Downey.

Not a statement of quality or his importance, just a basic fact. RDJ get paid more than anyone else to do these movies.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27293: Feb 16th 2015 at 5:24:26 PM

There were some recent rumblings that Hawkeye might be showing up in an episode of AOS, but I don't know how legit they were. Though it'd make some sense since he and Black Widow are probably the two Avengers you could most satisfyingly do on a TV budget.

edited 16th Feb '15 5:27:02 PM by comicwriter

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#27294: Feb 16th 2015 at 7:23:51 PM

After watching Linkara talk about Rom the Spaceknight, I really want to see him in the MCU.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27295: Feb 16th 2015 at 7:57:44 PM

Rom isn't owned by Marvel and has been Exiled from Continuity, unfortunately.

edited 16th Feb '15 8:12:51 PM by comicwriter

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#27296: Feb 16th 2015 at 7:59:52 PM

Spaceknights and dire wraiths though keep happening

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27297: Feb 16th 2015 at 8:14:17 PM

[up]Yeah, the general rule with licensed characters is that Marvel gets to keep any elements or supporting players that didn't originate in the source material. So that's why they can keep the Spaceknight race and the Dire Wraiths without ROM himself.

The same thing happened with the Godzilla book they published in the 70's. They lost Godzilla himself but continued to use several of the characters created exclusively for the comic.

edited 16th Feb '15 8:18:18 PM by comicwriter

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#27298: Feb 16th 2015 at 8:27:21 PM

These characters still exist in Marvel canon, though, as far I am aware. They just can't be shown or referred by name. So both Rom and Gofzilla still totally existed, but they are only mentioned in references.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#27299: Feb 16th 2015 at 8:39:30 PM

Yeah there was a scene from just a year or two ago where Hank Pym mentioned how he used to know a Spaceknight that helped the Avengers out a few times, but obviously they ended the conversation before he could say his name.

DrFurball Since: Jan, 2001
#27300: Feb 16th 2015 at 8:39:58 PM

According to Marvel Database, Godzilla appeared as recently as 2009. Apparently he was captured by Dr. Demonicus and mutated into a more lawyer-friendly form (I even have the Iron Man issue he appears in, I just realized). Then several years later, Archangel killed him.


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