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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26976: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:39:26 AM

prominence in the comics

I definitely wouldn't agree with that. In fact, at the time when the MCU was created, Iron Man was reviled by the comic fanbase, the Hulk was in prison, Thor was dead, and Hawkeye had just come off a resurrection and was going by Ronin. Also, half the roster are not founding Avengers in the comics.

The comics change to reflect the movies more than the movies change to reflect the comics.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:42:18 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26977: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:40:28 AM

[up][up]I don't remember Black Widow having an arc. I remember her having a couple rushed lines of exposition between action scenes, though.

[up]Iron Man, Cap, Thor, and Hulk are all founding members of the Avengers (EDIT: Cap only kinda-sorta, though). Also, Vision is an important part of Ultron's story in the comics. Saying prominence in the comics has no bearing whatsoever on the movie roster is just being silly. Besides, I didn't say prominence in current comics, did I?

DOUBLE EDIT: Okay, yes, he's not a founding member at all. Still an early, prominent member in the comics.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:47:09 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26978: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:42:53 AM

You don't remember Widow having a subplot in which she wants to save Hawkeye, then wants to remove "red from her ledger," ending when she has a short talk with Hawkeye doing the first about the latter?

Most of the Avengers had an arc - none of them are particularly detailed or extensive (Widow's is, arguably, the closest we get to one that actually involves character development), but they're there.

Edit: Captain America is not a founding Avenger, no.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:44:36 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26979: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:43:38 AM

Cap is not a founding Avenger. The Avengers were already established when he was discovered, and his lack of status as a founding Avenger has actually been made a plot point during certain events - most notably Operation: Galactic Storm, in which Tony Stark was able to pull rank over Cap in a conflict of ideals because of it.

Since the success of the films, however, RDJ has become the definitive appearance of Tony Stark, Samuel L. Jackson's Fury has become a Canon Immigrant to the main comic universe as has Coulson and the Chitauri, Hawkeye became a S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent, Widow became a repentant atoner and started talking about the "red in her ledger", etc.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:44:05 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#26980: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:44:36 AM

I don't remember Black Widow having an arc. I remember her having a couple rushed lines of exposition between action scenes, though.
Did you...like...fall asleep during the movie? What?

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26981: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:44:41 AM

[up][up][up]Those are the aforementioned rushed lines of exposition. If a character's entire arc is going to be them standing around talking about stuff that happened to them offscreen, I'd personally rather them not be in the movie at all. They can only distract from the main narrative.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:45:02 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26982: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:46:34 AM

Hawkeye's part of Widow's arc all happened onscreen with minimal exposition. The "red in the ledger" stuff was offscreen, but then that also continues into Winter Soldier as well: Widow's personal issues all stem from her past, which - as its in the past - is going to be mostly offscreen by default. That doesn't make it any less relevant to her character, or less narratively important to her role in either movie in which it is significant.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:46:48 AM by KnownUnknown

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#26983: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:47:55 AM

Kind of like how nobody's going, "HEY WAIT A MINUTE WHERE'S WASP THE WHOLE MOVIE CRUMBLES TO PIECES WITHOUT HER"
I can do that if you want.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26984: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:53:08 AM

[up][up]It's not "narratively important" at all. The "red in her ledger" subplot had nothing to do with Loki's alien invasion or the Avengers forming. It felt like it was squeezed into the movie just because it's from the comics and, hey, can't have Black Widow being a completely flat character. I mean, I don't hate Black Widow or anything, but I really don't see how she's relevant to anything else going on in the Avengers. She worked in Winter Soldier because she wasn't fighting next to a buncha superpowered gods and she wasn't struggling to share the screen with four-to-five other heroes at any given time. What Black Widow really needs is her own movie, not getting hamfistedly shoved into Infinity War (or if she is in Infinity War, she shouldn't be fighting on the battlefield next to the others as if she could ever hold a candle to them power-level-wise. Maybe she could help hunt down an earth-bound Infinity Gem or something).

[up]"Nobody" meaning the general public, not one individual person.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:53:55 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26985: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:53:40 AM

That would be what a subplot is. A great many movies, especially ensemble works, have them.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:54:30 AM by KnownUnknown

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26986: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:55:02 AM

[up]And it was a subplot that mostly involved characters standing around talking and delivering exposition about something that happened offscreen. Which is why it's not exactly my favorite thing ever in a movie about superheroes teaming up to fight aliens.

Look, the point I'm trying to make is that Black Widow or Hawkeye by themselves do not ruin the movie, but imagine six or seven Black Widows and Hawkeyes shoved into a story where they don't belong, and I can easily see Avengers 4 or 5 turning into an X-Men The Last Stand-level disaster. The writers need to be very selective about which Avengers they use, is all.

edited 13th Feb '15 9:57:34 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26987: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:58:18 AM

Hawkeye's portion of Widow's arc is mostly onscreen and contains minimal exposition since, as its mostly onscreen, that would be reiterating things we've already seen.

Also, as I said, Widow's past is important to Widow's character and, by necessity, would mostly be offscreen. Again, it being offscreen makes it no less relevant to her character, and no less narratively important - as it still drives her character and has a present effect on her actions and decisions.

Plot does not have to be shown in entirety to be important, nor does it have to be to work - Show, Don't Tell is a balance, and while certain movies in the MCU fail it in the standard direction (like Iron Man 3), it's not a universal - not everything has to be shown in order for the plot to work without breaking immersion or falling apart, and sometimes it's more effective to tell and not show. The concept of a character haunted by things that happened before the viewer even started watching is an old one, and a tried and true concept for characters like Natasha whose pasts go more or less unrevealed for the same reasons that they cause them issues.

edited 13th Feb '15 10:03:56 AM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26988: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:00:18 AM

It felt like it was squeezed into the movie just because it's from the comics and, hey, can't have Black Widow being a completely flat character.

It's not. Before the Avengers films came out, Black Widow had a checkered past but was mostly okay with it. She was S.H.I.E.L.D.'s favorite spy, occasional love interest of Iron Man, Hawkeye, and Dare Devil, and a very serious, no-nonsense professional. It's only because of the movie that her character's focus has shifted into making amends for her past misdeeds, because the movies influence the comics more than the comics influence the movies.

edited 13th Feb '15 10:01:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26989: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:07:00 AM

[up][up]The reason Widow's plot doesn't work is because it's boring and has nothing to do with the rest of the story, making it feel like random background information shoved into the viewer's face. The only way it even tied into anything was because I think Black Widow fake cried to trick Loki or something.

And bear in mind I'm not even talking about a problem with the Avengers, but a potential problem with the inevitable sequels. The way Black Widow's plot is handled doesn't ruin the movie, but I really don't want to see Captain Marvel and Black Panther and Spider-Man and Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver and Vision and Falcon and War Machine and fifty others all getting their character arcs done in the exact same way. Of course, some of those characters are gonna get their own movies, which alleviates the problem, but as far as I know Black Widow's not about to play a major role any time soon. I'd have thought she'd be in Civil War, but then that's also gonna have Iron Man and probably a bunch of other heroes in it, so I'm not sure how much more screentime she's gonna get.

[up]The movies are happening in an earlier point in the Marvel universe than the comics. The Avengers just formed. You make it sound like if everything doesn't match the latest comics exactly, there's no way the comics are still the source material. I'm sure Black Widow will get over her checkered past at some point in the movies, too.

edited 13th Feb '15 10:10:23 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
lackofsense Since: Jan, 2013
#26990: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:18:26 AM

I thought her plot worked and I thought the character had purpose in the story. I thought every part of that movie worked together so well that it would be hard to remove individual components without the movie suffering for it.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#26991: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:27:33 AM

And could the same not be said of Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk? Any one of them could be replaced by the other two.

Thor maybe. Ironman and Hulk need some major rewriting to make the missile scene work, which is not the case with Hawkeye. And even Thor need to be there to arrest Loki at the end. Not to mention all these three characters are actually impressive on screen. Hawkeye, not so much.

All these "direction the flow of combat from vintage point" and "blowing Loki up" is, frankly, superfluous. It doesn't need to happen and have no emotional impact on the movie. It is not like the combat would be woefuly different if Hawkeye wasn't there, and it is not like Loki lost because of that one explosion. At one point or another, Loki was beaten up by all of the cast.. Remove a few of them and nothing changes. But the other characters did other stuff besides beating the puny god, but Hawkeye did not.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#26992: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:30:57 AM

And just a few months ago half the thread was saying Captain America was useless in the battle and Hawkeye did more than him. These things, they come in waves. Next month it will probably be Thor or something.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26993: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:34:35 AM

These are superheroes - they can all fight. I don't think that ought to be a factor in relevance to the story.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26994: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:34:56 AM

I just thought about it but I hope the collab between Marvel and Sony means Marvel can use the Beetle now.

Oh hell yes that would be great.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26995: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:41:49 AM

They should definitely be able to use Beetles #2 and #3 as characters now, even if they may or may not still be able to use the Beetle name itself.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26996: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:43:25 AM

The movies are happening in an earlier point in the Marvel universe than the comics. The Avengers just formed. You make it sound like if everything doesn't match the latest comics exactly, there's no way the comics are still the source material. I'm sure Black Widow will get over her checkered past at some point in the movies, too.

You're right. The movies are happening at an earlier point, which means that the events of the movies should be a reflection of an earlier point in the comics, not a later point. When Early Career Black Widow in the movies laments the red in her ledger, one would assume this is based on something that happened at an early point in her career in the comics, and not on something that only happens years after the movie comes out, right?

But that's not what's happening. The movies are very different than the comics, and those differences are being reflected in later comics only released after the films' success. The films are influencing the comics, not the other way around.

And just a few months ago half the thread was saying Captain America was useless in the battle and Hawkeye did more than him. These things, they come in waves. Next month it will probably be Thor or something.

I've also heard it about Widow. Thor's safe because his contributions are huge and explosive and obvious. Skills like "leadership" or "infiltration", contributions that can't explode twelve guys' heads simultaneously, are often downplayed by superhero fans.

Depending on the fan, either Cap, Widow, or Hawkeye was "the useless one" because we didn't get any scenes of them punching out Leviathans.

edited 13th Feb '15 10:46:08 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#26997: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:45:44 AM

[up] Not that the comics haven't had their share of influence on the films, of course.

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26998: Feb 13th 2015 at 11:06:55 AM

Tony, Steve, Thor and even Bruce had a whole movie to establish their characters prior to the Avengers. Clint had some snarky lines and Natasha had an undercover mission during which we saw that she is a competent agent but not much more. The movie had basically five missions. Mission one was to give Clint a profile, which happened. Mission two was to show what kind of person Natasha is under her mask, and it did that. Mission three was to recon Bruce, because the first movie really didn't do a good job with his character, and they did it. Mission four was to allow every Avenger to confront Loki, and they did it. Mission five was to create as much character interaction as possible between the Avengers, and they mostly did that. With everything else which was going on, Thor barely got any interaction with anyone, and Clint didn't really have an opportunity to interact with anyone other than Natasha either, because he was with the others only for the final battle. But all in all they did a great job.

In an Got G crossover movie you don't have to establish any of the characters to that degree, because by now they already are established.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#26999: Feb 13th 2015 at 11:08:48 AM

dp, I'm still waiting for the punchline where you declare you're being sarcastic.

Aaaany time now. 8P

I legitimately think the Incredible Hulk is among the best of the movies. It's an exploration into the psyche and character of Bruce Banner and spends most of it focusing on the quiet scenes of him struggling to keep the Hulk under control and struggling to remain normal and trying to reconnect with people he cared about. He even gets a really cool scene as the Hulk where he and Betty are in the cave and we get to see a glimpse into the mind of the Hulk as he gets terrified by thunder, so he yells at it.

And Blonsky's transformation into the Abomination was also one of the best things because it was slow and took basically the whole movie, allowing us to see why someone would choose that and what it would do to them as a person.

And it was a subplot that mostly involved characters standing around talking and delivering exposition about something that happened offscreen. Which is why it's not exactly my favorite thing ever in a movie about superheroes teaming up to fight aliens.

Those scenes were absolutely narratively essential and some of the most fascinating, to me, in the movie.

To start with, narratively speaking, you can't have a movie which is fight scene, recruitment, show off cool things, argument, fight scene, dramatic reveal, fight scene, denouement. I mean, you can, but it wouldn't be very effective. There isn't very much room in fight scenes, cool things, and even the argument for us to grow attached to and care about the characters. But that's why the trope Action Film, Quiet Drama Scene exists. If there is all intense scenes and cool scenes, there is no room for the narrative to breathe, no room for us to cool down and look at the characters to think about why we care about them and process the action scenes and the cool things and the arguments. And all the big stuff will now feel even bigger because we're seeing them in contrast to the quiet scenes. So, even if you didn't enjoy them, necessarily, the definitely made your enjoyment of all the other scenes more, even if you didn't realize it, because they made those scenes seem bigger. (The opposite is true, btw, which is why, in my own writing, I start off what I intend to be mostly a quiet character scene with two big and dramatic chase scenes and I've got a big and bombastic climax planned for it.)

I mean, they could've shoved Black Widow's backstory in with, like, a flashback, or something, but that wouldn't have served the same narrative role and they'd've had to find another way to put some quiet scenes in and you'd probably be complaining about how Captain America's subplot mostly involved characters standing around talking and delivering exposition about something that happened offscreen. What they were talking about offscreen in the Black Widow scenes Joss Whedon made the choice, consciously or unconsciously, to put offscreen.

And I think he made the right choice. Black Widow isn't some big, flashy hero like Iron Man or Captain America. Rather, she's a spy. Showing her backstory through scenes of it rather than through her chatting with Hawkeye would've been peering into a place where she doesn't let others into because she has to keep such things to herself. So it just wouldn't have worked for the character, which is why she was perfect for the role of providing the quiet scenes.

And I personally love those scenes because I love character more than plot or action or anything, so the quiet scenes are always ones I love. It's why I love Thor and the Incredible Hulk so much, too.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#27000: Feb 13th 2015 at 11:31:34 AM

[up]I also thought Hulk's slower scene with Betty was a highlight of the movie, but I don't think it's comparable to Black Widow's and Hawkeye's scenes together in Avengers. The Hulk scene was slow and quiet with minimal dialogue, whereas my complaint about Black Widow's backstory is that it's an Exposition Dump. If anything, the scenes only made Black Widow and Hawkeye seem even more stilted and emotionless to me. I know they're supposed to be stoic secret agents and all, but it still made it hard for me to connect with them in comparison to the other four.

Also, for the record, Captain America's characterization was fine. It was mostly shown through talking, yes, but his Fish out of Water status was made clear through interactions with the other characters rather than exposition, so it was still Show, Don't Tell.

Come to think of it, GotG, Marvel's other ensemble cast movie, had the same problem where Gamora's and Drax's characters were mostly established through exposition (though I give them more leeway since Marvel's outer space lore is complicated and they were at least relevant to the central conflict with Thanos). Rocket Raccoon's scene at the bar is a good example of characterization through dialogue being done well since he delivers backstory info while expressing some actual emotion and the story took its time to build to that point rather than diving right into it.

edited 13th Feb '15 11:36:48 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.

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