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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26401: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:28:19 PM

You know what my requirements for Peter Parker are: Good actor, around 20 years old (and looking at least his age, preferably younger), with a very lithe build and overly long and thin fingers. Basically Andrew Garfield 10-15 years younger. Everything else, I really don't care about. So if the only distinction of Miles Morales is that he has a different heritage, I don't really see the point of insisting on him. I would simply insist on the actor fulfilling the requirements I already mentioned, and otherwise they can do a colourblind casting for all I care. And if they even find an actor who actually IS a teenager, has the right build and will most likely keep it past puberty, and the chops to pull the role off, I'd rejoice.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#26402: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:30:50 PM

Wack'd:

I'd like to point out that when I say "worst reason" I mean that it can certainly be a reason, but it shouldn't be the best one you've got. In the list of reasons Miles Morales is a good character, "brown" shouldn't be at the top of the list.

EDIT: And don't tell me it's not. Because the only reasons anyone has actually put forward here for why they want to see Miles are "not white" and "not Peter", and the latter without actually going into what makes him different from Peter besides being a literal different person.

EDIT 2: Let's even just leave the movies aside for a moment. At this point, I just want someone, anyone, to tell me what they like about Miles Morales. I'm not kidding when I say that I have never heard anyone actually do that.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:36:55 PM by BadWolf21

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26403: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:36:08 PM

I agree that wanting to write a character simply to have a minority character to write is a poor place to approach writing a character in the first place - if the main thing that appeals to you before all else is that the character is black, or the character is a woman, or the character is homosexual, or anything like that, then even before you add the development, and the complexity of their story, or any depth, that presupposition is going to color the way you write the character. Because deep down, the main reason this character is even being written is just because they're not white/male/straight/etc.

If you think their story is interesting, that's one thing. And it's an important distinction that if you think their role as a minority is in part what makes that story compelling, that's also a good place to start.

But if the only thing that draws one to the character is that they're a minority, and not who the character is or even why their race influences that identity, then that's near always going to cause the final product to suffer. It's actually similar to the conversation we just about doing Miles for more reasons than just because he's not-Peter: there's should also be more to him than just not being white.

This is, arguably, why Race Lifts tend to at least result in decent characters - as much as I dislike the idea of just coloring a white character brown and pointing to them as an examlpe of "hey, there's your black character" (for, admittedly, similar reasons - again, there should be a reason for it beyond just wanting a black character, Ability over Appearance being a good one), tokenism and racial character types are so ubiquitous these days that having a character written without any of that first actually works in our favor in that regard.

A good way to think of it is, say, Hayley Atwell's approach to playing Peggy Carter, and the writers' approach to writing her - all of whom have been clear that their interest is in Peggy as a person, and the potential Peggy has to the MCU, first. Peggy being a woman in the 40's is a major part of her characterization, but that has never been the backbone of Peggy's character nor the appeal of her character.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:40:05 PM by KnownUnknown

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26404: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:37:49 PM

Of course, if Marvel had unlimited resources and could make as many movies as they like, I wouldn't have a problem with them doing Peter Parker movies and Miles Morales movies. As it stands, though, there's a laundry list of characters I'd rather see in the MCU before Miles considering there's probably only going to be a finite number of movies before the superhero fad ends or Marvel Studios burns to the ground or the sun goes supernova or whatever.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26405: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:45:10 PM

Wow, that happened.

I'm interestedin seeing Miles but that's because adapatations have always been the best way for me to get exposed to any character that I have some interest in. I mean, I probably know half as much about the Marvel and DC Universe as I do now were it not for the cartoons I enjoyed based on their properties. So I would want Miles in the films becuase hopefully it will give me a chance to learn more about him.

If (And by if I mean they will, that's what the article said) they make another Parker movie I won't mind, i mean, it's jsut expected. I would jsut be slightly disappointed becuase I would want t osee what they do with the character of Miles and if it piques my interest enough to continue persuing.

The Blog The Art
machop Since: Jan, 2015
#26406: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:46:08 PM

Just heard about the Spider man thingy. I am pleased.

IF ONLY RUPERT MURDOCH ALLOWED MARVEL TO USE X-MEN.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#26407: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:47:33 PM

Why the hell is it that every time I argue "ideological purity in pop fiction is neigh-non-existant" that people come back with "BUT IF YOU'RE DOING THINGS FOR IDEOLOGICALLY UNPURE REASONS IT'S BAAAAAAD?"

Here's a tip: if you cannot handle people doing things to pander to people or to fill a quota, stop watching mass media. All of it. Because there is no work in which this doesn't happen.

I dare you to name a single piece of media where every single character was fully-formed with an interesting story from the moment of creation.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:49:55 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#26408: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:48:14 PM

Because nerds?

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26409: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:48:30 PM

@machop, Considering mutants have been around since WWII and possibly before and their long storied history is sort of instrumental to them integrating them into the MCU as it currently stands would be.... Damn near impossible. At least Spider-man can start at any time. Same with the FF.

Besides, the X-Men don't exactly lose anything by being their own universe. If anything, it enhances them.

@Wack'd, Becuase humans, I imagine.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:49:31 PM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#26410: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:49:22 PM

Every popular character that DC or Marvel have that is well known in mainstream popular culture known has been around for a long time and have had plenty of long-term exposure in popular culture, which explains why they're still around. Here's the thing though: giving lesser known characters that same sort of exposure means that they'll be around for a long time, too, especially non-white characters, which were relatively few and far between back in the day. Representation matters, people.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:50:51 PM by higherbrainpattern

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#26411: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:51:51 PM

You know, I have yet to see any Miles fans in this discussion articulate why they like him as a character for any reason besides "He's not Peter."

Ok, I don't know all that much about the character, but I'm liking the idea of a Miles Morales Spiderman in movies more and more.

Now, to start with, I think it would work better with the MCU. Marvel has been borrowing heavily from Ultimates for the MCU, and Morales is Ultimates Spiderman, so he'd fit in. In addition, and, more importantly, they could put in some to establish that Peter Parker was Spiderman, but he managed to avoid the other MCU characters, for the most part, which would make that Nick Fury line to Iron Man about him not being the first hero make more sense. One of the heroes he was talking about was Peter Parker as Spiderman.

Now, how Miles Morales became Spiderman seems similar to how Peter did, but there are some differences that I find intriguing. The basic story, character gets powers, doesn't want to be a hero, a death happens they could've stopped, they decide to become a hero out of guilt, is still there so people can still identify him as Spiderman-y, but where it changes are interesting and I think would make for an interesting movie. First, Peter used his powers to help himself before Uncle Ben died, while Miles seems like he was more just trying to avoid using them. Second, his father has a dislike for superheroes, so this could create an interesting dynamic and give him a legitimate reason to never tell his parents he's Spiderman as well as give him a good reason to choose to stay non-heroic in addition to just being afraid. This is in contrast to Peter who's reason was that he just didn't care and wanted to help himself. Third, rather than a relative, it's a hero who dies who sparks his desire to be a hero. This further cements the difference between Peter and Miles I've been seeing, Miles was never quite as selfish as Peter. He became a hero because of someone he really didn't know, he refused to become a hero because he was afraid rather than because he wanted to use his powers for his own selfish gain. This also gives him an initial push towards heroism rather than revenge, which would be interesting.

This sets up his own unique and interesting dynamic. He has this conflict between his fear and his desire to honor the legacy of a hero he could've saved. He also has a dynamic with his father who doesn't like superheroes and himself as a hero, again fitting with this earlier dynamic of fear.

Now, if they start setting up Peter Parker really soon, they could have Peter show up in Age of Ultron and get killed, Miles show up in Civil War, then give Miles's backstory in the new Spiderman story. This would be a fundamentally interesting story and allow us to have some variety instead of getting a third Peter Parker.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#26412: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:51:54 PM

Fox can keep the X-men although it would be nice if they could work out a deal that let Marvel use certain elements of the franchise. Just save the FF already. Fox clearly has no idea what the fuck they're doing.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#26413: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:54:38 PM

Whedon is pretty much the only one major connected figure to the MCU that has expressed a great interest in wanting them back since he has written books with them and knows how much having their huge diverse cast could help the universe. If Fox and Marvel were on better terms I would love to see him do a X-Men movie in their universe.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26414: Feb 10th 2015 at 2:57:36 PM

NVM.

edited 10th Feb '15 2:57:47 PM by KnownUnknown

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26415: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:00:15 PM

[up][up][up][up]Ehhhh... The Ultimate comics gave Peter over a decade of character development, and I still thought his death was too abrupt. I don't see how the movies could possibly give him enough screentime before killing him. If they had to use Miles, I'd rather them go full Hank Pym and make Peter dead already instead of teasing him just so he can get killed off immediately.

Or, better yet, if they're gonna go the Legacy Character route, they could just use Spider-Girl and make Peter a bit older than the other superheroes.

(EDIT: Whoops, Hank's not dead in the Ant-Man movie. Brain fart. Sorry, that's a bad example...)

(OTHER EDIT: Thanks for actually articulating a reason Miles would be a valuable addition to the movies besides "he's not Peter," though. That's greatly appreciated.)

edited 10th Feb '15 3:13:39 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#26416: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:00:33 PM

Hey look, someone actually answered the call. Thanks, deathpigeon.

Now I understand what makes Miles different from Peter, and worth seeing. I still don't really care about the character, but at least it's not really his fault. I've never cared about the Ultimate Universe. And since he'll be part of the main universe soon, hey, I might grow to like him.

There are two weak points in your post though.

which would make that Nick Fury line to Iron Man about him not being the first hero make more sense

Pretty sure that line was in reference specifically to Cap, and retroactively to Hank and Janet, and the generation of heroes they're implied to come from as well. I don't think Peter works as predating Tony.

Second is that there's pretty much no way to get Peter into Age of Ultron in any way. The movie is out in less than three months.

EDIT: Actually, there's ([up]) an interesting idea. Have Peter be a contemporary of Hank and Janet. I mean, he was created in the '60s, after all.

Of course, that's not what they're going to do, because Sony, but still, that would've been cool.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:01:49 PM by BadWolf21

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26417: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:00:42 PM

So...other than the obvious (no Aunt May, Mary Jane aso), what exactly is the difference between Peter Parker and Miles Morales? Do they have a different approach to problems? Different morales? Different priorities? What makes Mile Morales the better or more interesting Spider-man? To clarify, I don't speak about difference in the backstory, but differences in the actual character.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:01:42 PM by Swanpride

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26418: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:06:08 PM

[up]I believe, at least in the early issues, Miles was less self-confident than Peter. His powers are also slightly different. He still makes quips, though, and his rouges gallery is the same as far as I know.

Also, Aunt May and Mary Jane are still regular characters.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:06:36 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26419: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:07:39 PM

[up][up]Of course Miles has different Morales.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:07:53 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#26420: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:09:03 PM

Here's a tip for you: if you're going to be bringing up points and disagreeing with people on a forum, you need to stop taking strong opinions by other people as condemnations of your character, for one. You need to stop simplifying people's opinions, especially if you're simultaneously trying to give yourself the moral high ground.

Also, that last part isn't really relevant to the point, unless you're arguing that the fact that every movie has flaws is somehow justification to have flaws in a movie.

I only see it as a condemnation of my character insofar as it reflects a failure on my part to put together a compelling and convincing argument. That's frustrating, but it's also no one's fault but my own.

Nor do I think I have the moral high ground. I am aware that I sometimes post when I'm angry and a bit confrontational, and that it's an urge I should be resisting more often.

I'm not arguing that "the fact that every movie has flaws is somehow justification to have flaws in a movie", I'm saying that writing characters for reasons beyond filling in designated slots is no more a flaw in storytelling than the involvement of cameras is a flaw in cinematography. Any story starts with bare-bone basics and then gets more complicated from there.

Starting from "I want to have a black character" is no less valid than starting from "I want to have a comic relief character" or "I want to have a smart character". If you fail to grow the characters beyond those concepts, that's not a problem with the method, that's a problem with the writer.

Iron Man started from "I want to have a rich character." Spider-Man started from "I want to have a teen character". No one's arguing that they are somehow lesser or morally bankrupt for this, as well they shouldn't.

Falcon, for what it's worth, exists because Gene Colan really enjoyed drawing black people. If that's not tokenism, I dunno what is.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:10:15 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#26421: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:09:27 PM

[up][up]In Stark contrast to Tony.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:10:37 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#26422: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:09:57 PM

Different morales?

I think you mean "morals". Unless that was on purpose. smile

Oh God! Natural light!
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#26423: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:11:12 PM

Morales is spanish for morals, I am pretty sure that one was about making a pun.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26424: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:11:31 PM

[up][up][up] Jeez, you're fast. I never meant to post that (I clicked the send button accidentally), and it was only up for seconds at best.

For the sake of clarification, however, on that last part I was thinking about this:

I dare you to name a single piece of media where every single character was fully-formed with an interesting story from the moment of creation.

edited 10th Feb '15 3:13:45 PM by KnownUnknown

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#26425: Feb 10th 2015 at 3:13:44 PM

Miles is kind of meeker and more subdued I guess and while he has geeky interests and is intelligent, he doesn't have the Reed Richards level intellect that Peter is sometimes presented as having (although that is something that none of the adaptations except the 1990's cartoon really focused on).

I'm not sure how to best phrase this, but Miles is younger than pretty much all versions of Peter and there's an effort to show how a (conscientious and intelligent) 15 year old would respond to having super powers. He's more on the Kid Hero side of Ordinary High-School Student.

I guess overall Miles plays the everyman aspect of Spider-Man a lot straighter than Peter does. Granted, the Ultimate Peter (comics and cartoon) does play that straighter than the main universe Peter, but stll...

edited 10th Feb '15 3:16:02 PM by Hodor2


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