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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
@Mukora For all the things they did wrong in TAS 2, I think that was the one thing they did right. Yes, doing this can be sexist, but it doesn't have to. It depends on how it is framed. If the death is only about the hero, than it is sexist (mostly because it is always a female character who meets this fate, it would be less problematic when this happened to male characters more often). But if the character in question is a character in her own right whose death is a tragedy not just for the hero but also for the audience, then I don't complain. Especially not if her last act on earth is rescuing the whole city instead of just getting dragged out of her apartment for lolz.
Well, yes, there is that, but they at least made the effort to give Gwen agency in her death scene. Like, if she'd been killed by Electro after making her choice to come to the fight and after making her contributions to the fight, her death would be the result of her own choices and heroic actions, as opposed to the comic, where she was just abducted and murdered for being Peter's girlfriend.
In a parallel timeline where Amazing 2 is a decent film, Gwen's death would be considered a Heroic Sacrifice and might have been, like, the emotional climax of the film, prompting Electro's Heel Realization and ending the battle. There are ways the death could have been made to work. However, they opted instead to undermine their own setup and sabotage the next film's protagonist in the process, ending it in the stupidest possible way they could have played that moment.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:32:15 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Honestly, Sony had everything to lose by not compromising. While I thought TASM 2 was decent, they pretty much wrote themselves into a corner; people were lukewarm on the Sinister Six Storyline and the only way to reboot the franchise a second time without pissing the mass majority off would've been to have Spider-Man in the MCU.
I think what got a lot of people about it was they framed Peter as a sexist jerkass for constantly doing stuff like screaming at Gwen to stay away and at one point even webbing her up so she can't follow him, and she's supposed to prove him wrong by showing up and playing a major role in defeating Electro. They basically tried to give a feminist twist to the character by having her be smart, assertive, and capable, which endeared a lot of people to her (in particular Movie!Gwen has a large female fanbase).
Then Harry swoops in and murders her, proving that Peter was right all along and that Gwen's fussy feminism resulted in her death.
Io9 said it best when they said Amazing Spider-Man 2 is a movie about how Spider-Man and Gwen both work very hard to get Gwen killed.
@Tobias Drake Exactly. A large part of the movie was about Gwen's right to make her own choices. You want to break up with me because it is "too dangerous"? Screw you! I break up with you! My father told you to keep me safe? Screw you, neither he nor you have the right to dictate my life. And boy, wasn't that exactly what I wanted for ages? That one of those countless girl friends who have been lied to in order to keep them "safe" stands up and say: That's BS! Don't rob me of my own agenda! Don't take the right away from me to make this decision on my own! And this time around Gwen did. To the very least consequence, but it was beautifully done. Which is the main reason why I can't hate the movie. Gwen was the type of person who was ready to do what was necessary, and she did. She wasn't just a sexy lamp, she was a full fledged character and her dying was a tragedy, but it happened because SHE choose to be there. Because she knew that she was needed.
But Peter wasn't right all along. Without her there, he would have lost.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:39:51 AM by Swanpride
But he still got her killed, which is exactly what he spent the entire movie telling her and what Gwen's dad warned Peter about in the first place. That's one of the problems. The movie is incredibly schizophrenic about whatever sort of message its trying to convey about their relationship.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:42:55 AM by comicwriter
And for her reward she gets swooped up by a randomly nearby villain and killed for no particular reason with a death that actually made me laugh.
I mean TAS 1 and 2 made quite the effort of making Gwen a character that was proactive and actually doing stuff, they could have held off for another movie and actually made her death be a direct consequence of her actions and actually heroic rather than "I'm going to do this to a mostly fledged character to make you hurt, Parker!"
The Blog The ArtWorth noting is that The Night Gwen Stacy Died came years after the Green Goblin's debut, when he was gaining a reputation as something of a joke flying clown than the savage maniac he was meant to be. Also that Gwen Stacy in the comics had way less personality despite several attempts by Stan Lee to prop her up, to the point that TNGSD writer Gerry Conway argued she was more interesting dead than she had even been alive.
TASM fixed the personality part, but they misunderstood the consequence part. By having Green Goblin kill her as his very first act, he becomes too dangerous too soon. Nothing he does after that might have topped this. Not even blowing up New York or something.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:50:58 AM by Tuckerscreator
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That, yes.
That they worked so hard to build Gwen up into such a strong character and such a fantastic feminist icon makes it all the harsher when she is abruptly Stuffed in the Fridge for no good reason, and without agency; Gwen's agency helped defeat Electro, but Gwen's death was solely a consequence of her dating Peter.
I can accept a Heroic Sacrifice. I'm even willing to accept a Sacrificial Lion. But Stuffing a fantastic, well-developed character like Gwen into a Fridge only reinforces that no matter how great and well-developed she may be, she is still subject to death at a moment's notice because she is, and will always be, a Disposable Woman first and foremost.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:52:03 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I think it is pretty clear. The first movie was all about Peter being careless with his knowledge and his powers and therefore causing a catastrophe. The second one is all about him trying to do the right thing from the get go, but sometimes it is not easy to figure out what the right thing is, and it is impossible to rescue everyone. That is one of the hard realities of the movie (and the second reason I can't hate it). Normally those movies either try to tell us that if you do everything right, everything will end well, or the guilt for the tragedy lies entirely by the villain. In this case though, it just happens. It just happens because Gwen is not the type of person who will sit back when she knows that she can make a difference, and it happens because Peter made the right decision by keeping his blood from Oscorp. That's a hard lesson to learn that being a superhero, even in a bascially optimistic world, doesn't always come with a reward.
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While I know little about the Ultimate Universe, I know enough that I can only find myself wishing that they had introduced the symbiotes just a little sooner...
In any case, this is obviously really big news. Can someone summarize what the plan is now for me?
edited 10th Feb '15 11:00:19 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!She was disposable as far as the plot was concerned. Despite all the attempts at putting a more progressive, feminist spin on her she still ended up Stuffed into the Fridge to motivate Peter's angst. Hell they were originally gonna introduce MJ in the same movie and likely would have done so in ASM 3 had it gone through.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:01:47 AM by comicwriter
Haven't seen the film, but I assume she died primarily in order to recreate one of the iconic scenes from Spider-Man's history. The filmmakers probably weren't thinking "How do we give Peter character development in this film?" "Kill Gwen!" They were probably thinking "Alright, Gwen's here, so let's do that bridge thing with the actual character that was there in the comics instead of using Mary Jane like the previous films and cartoon."
You mean the MCU's plan for Spider-Man?
The gist of it is that Sony still produces and has creative control for Spidey's films, but is explicitly part of the MCU now, beats to the tune of the MCU's drum, and the next movie is being coproduced by Kevin Feige. Sony is essentially a third party making the Spider-Man portion of the greater Marvel Cinematic Universe, rather than having their own separate Spider-Man universe and character.
Spider-Man is set to appear in an upcoming MCU film - it's not confirmed which but it's likely to be Civil War. Likewise, other MCU characters may appear in the upcoming Spider-Man films.
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That doesn't make it any better.
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That is essentially what's happening. Marvel gets to use Spider-Man in team-ups and Avengers films but Sony still distributes his movies and maintains some level of control.
I don't think so. Honestly? There's no way Peter will play the same role he did in the comics. There's simply no way it works in this continuity and they've already said that secret I Ds will not be the core issue.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:17:30 AM by comicwriter

I really liked the first movie, and despite its many faults I really liked some parts of the second.
But I'm not too fussed that it's getting reset. I only hope that if they can't find someone who's much better they let Garfield continue to play Peter Parker.
"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."