TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#26301: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:26:57 AM

I really liked the first movie, and despite its many faults I really liked some parts of the second.

But I'm not too fussed that it's getting reset. I only hope that if they can't find someone who's much better they let Garfield continue to play Peter Parker.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#26302: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:27:22 AM

I just hope they don't do another origin story. Everybody already knows that shit. Skip to the good stuff.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26303: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:27:28 AM

@Mukora For all the things they did wrong in TAS 2, I think that was the one thing they did right. Yes, doing this can be sexist, but it doesn't have to. It depends on how it is framed. If the death is only about the hero, than it is sexist (mostly because it is always a female character who meets this fate, it would be less problematic when this happened to male characters more often). But if the character in question is a character in her own right whose death is a tragedy not just for the hero but also for the audience, then I don't complain. Especially not if her last act on earth is rescuing the whole city instead of just getting dragged out of her apartment for lolz.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26304: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:29:38 AM

@Mukora, agreed, He was the shining beacon of quality in those films and I want to see him as Spider-man. I just want him in better written and directed Spider-man stuff.

The Blog The Art
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#26305: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:30:12 AM

Except the only purpose Gwen's death served was giving Peter "Character Development" and sticking to a shitty decades-old storyline.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26306: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:31:25 AM

I would argue that killing Gwen was a mistake. Yes, let's take the primary female protagonist and have her die for the hero's manpain. Because that isn't cliched as fuck or arguably sexist.

Well, yes, there is that, but they at least made the effort to give Gwen agency in her death scene. Like, if she'd been killed by Electro after making her choice to come to the fight and after making her contributions to the fight, her death would be the result of her own choices and heroic actions, as opposed to the comic, where she was just abducted and murdered for being Peter's girlfriend.

In a parallel timeline where Amazing 2 is a decent film, Gwen's death would be considered a Heroic Sacrifice and might have been, like, the emotional climax of the film, prompting Electro's Heel Realization and ending the battle. There are ways the death could have been made to work. However, they opted instead to undermine their own setup and sabotage the next film's protagonist in the process, ending it in the stupidest possible way they could have played that moment.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:32:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26307: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:35:13 AM

@Tobias, Now See, I want that movie!

The Blog The Art
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#26308: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:37:09 AM

Mousa: I'm also surprised Sony gave up this quickly. They seemed pretty set on making their own Spider-man Cinematic Universe. I thought they'd at least get Sinister Six out there before they decided to call it quits.

Honestly, Sony had everything to lose by not compromising. While I thought TASM 2 was decent, they pretty much wrote themselves into a corner; people were lukewarm on the Sinister Six Storyline and the only way to reboot the franchise a second time without pissing the mass majority off would've been to have Spider-Man in the MCU.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26309: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:38:12 AM

I think what got a lot of people about it was they framed Peter as a sexist jerkass for constantly doing stuff like screaming at Gwen to stay away and at one point even webbing her up so she can't follow him, and she's supposed to prove him wrong by showing up and playing a major role in defeating Electro. They basically tried to give a feminist twist to the character by having her be smart, assertive, and capable, which endeared a lot of people to her (in particular Movie!Gwen has a large female fanbase).

Then Harry swoops in and murders her, proving that Peter was right all along and that Gwen's fussy feminism resulted in her death.

Io9 said it best when they said Amazing Spider-Man 2 is a movie about how Spider-Man and Gwen both work very hard to get Gwen killed.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26310: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:38:55 AM

@Tobias Drake Exactly. A large part of the movie was about Gwen's right to make her own choices. You want to break up with me because it is "too dangerous"? Screw you! I break up with you! My father told you to keep me safe? Screw you, neither he nor you have the right to dictate my life. And boy, wasn't that exactly what I wanted for ages? That one of those countless girl friends who have been lied to in order to keep them "safe" stands up and say: That's BS! Don't rob me of my own agenda! Don't take the right away from me to make this decision on my own! And this time around Gwen did. To the very least consequence, but it was beautifully done. Which is the main reason why I can't hate the movie. Gwen was the type of person who was ready to do what was necessary, and she did. She wasn't just a sexy lamp, she was a full fledged character and her dying was a tragedy, but it happened because SHE choose to be there. Because she knew that she was needed.

[up] But Peter wasn't right all along. Without her there, he would have lost.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:39:51 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26311: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:42:28 AM

But he still got her killed, which is exactly what he spent the entire movie telling her and what Gwen's dad warned Peter about in the first place. That's one of the problems. The movie is incredibly schizophrenic about whatever sort of message its trying to convey about their relationship.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:42:55 AM by comicwriter

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26312: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:46:24 AM

And for her reward she gets swooped up by a randomly nearby villain and killed for no particular reason with a death that actually made me laugh.

I mean TAS 1 and 2 made quite the effort of making Gwen a character that was proactive and actually doing stuff, they could have held off for another movie and actually made her death be a direct consequence of her actions and actually heroic rather than "I'm going to do this to a mostly fledged character to make you hurt, Parker!"

The Blog The Art
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#26313: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:49:00 AM

Worth noting is that The Night Gwen Stacy Died came years after the Green Goblin's debut, when he was gaining a reputation as something of a joke flying clown than the savage maniac he was meant to be. Also that Gwen Stacy in the comics had way less personality despite several attempts by Stan Lee to prop her up, to the point that TNGSD writer Gerry Conway argued she was more interesting dead than she had even been alive.

TASM fixed the personality part, but they misunderstood the consequence part. By having Green Goblin kill her as his very first act, he becomes too dangerous too soon. Nothing he does after that might have topped this. Not even blowing up New York or something.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:50:58 AM by Tuckerscreator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26314: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:50:36 AM

[up][up] That, yes.

That they worked so hard to build Gwen up into such a strong character and such a fantastic feminist icon makes it all the harsher when she is abruptly Stuffed in the Fridge for no good reason, and without agency; Gwen's agency helped defeat Electro, but Gwen's death was solely a consequence of her dating Peter.

I can accept a Heroic Sacrifice. I'm even willing to accept a Sacrificial Lion. But Stuffing a fantastic, well-developed character like Gwen into a Fridge only reinforces that no matter how great and well-developed she may be, she is still subject to death at a moment's notice because she is, and will always be, a Disposable Woman first and foremost.

edited 10th Feb '15 10:52:03 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26315: Feb 10th 2015 at 10:58:47 AM

I think it is pretty clear. The first movie was all about Peter being careless with his knowledge and his powers and therefore causing a catastrophe. The second one is all about him trying to do the right thing from the get go, but sometimes it is not easy to figure out what the right thing is, and it is impossible to rescue everyone. That is one of the hard realities of the movie (and the second reason I can't hate it). Normally those movies either try to tell us that if you do everything right, everything will end well, or the guilt for the tragedy lies entirely by the villain. In this case though, it just happens. It just happens because Gwen is not the type of person who will sit back when she knows that she can make a difference, and it happens because Peter made the right decision by keeping his blood from Oscorp. That's a hard lesson to learn that being a superhero, even in a bascially optimistic world, doesn't always come with a reward.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#26316: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:00:04 AM

[up][up] While I know little about the Ultimate Universe, I know enough that I can only find myself wishing that they had introduced the symbiotes just a little sooner...

In any case, this is obviously really big news. Can someone summarize what the plan is now for me?

edited 10th Feb '15 11:00:19 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26317: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:00:12 AM

[up][up][up]There is nothing Disposable about her. She will be missed.

edited 10th Feb '15 11:00:20 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26318: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:01:16 AM

She was disposable as far as the plot was concerned. Despite all the attempts at putting a more progressive, feminist spin on her she still ended up Stuffed into the Fridge to motivate Peter's angst. Hell they were originally gonna introduce MJ in the same movie and likely would have done so in ASM 3 had it gone through.

edited 10th Feb '15 11:01:47 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26319: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:04:14 AM

[up]Most likely...but Peter is still the hero and side-characters can die all the time.

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#26320: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:05:18 AM

Haven't seen the film, but I assume she died primarily in order to recreate one of the iconic scenes from Spider-Man's history. The filmmakers probably weren't thinking "How do we give Peter character development in this film?" "Kill Gwen!" They were probably thinking "Alright, Gwen's here, so let's do that bridge thing with the actual character that was there in the comics instead of using Mary Jane like the previous films and cartoon."

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#26321: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:06:03 AM

Which... doesn't really make it better.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#26322: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:07:24 AM

In any case, this is obviously really big news. Can someone summarize what the plan is now for me?

You mean the MCU's plan for Spider-Man?

The gist of it is that Sony still produces and has creative control for Spidey's films, but is explicitly part of the MCU now, beats to the tune of the MCU's drum, and the next movie is being coproduced by Kevin Feige. Sony is essentially a third party making the Spider-Man portion of the greater Marvel Cinematic Universe, rather than having their own separate Spider-Man universe and character.

Spider-Man is set to appear in an upcoming MCU film - it's not confirmed which but it's likely to be Civil War. Likewise, other MCU characters may appear in the upcoming Spider-Man films.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26323: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:13:57 AM

Though it was a little bit odd how they worded it...that the MCU comes to Spider-man and not the other way around.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#26324: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:15:50 AM

So does that mean that Black Panther is out of Civil War?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26325: Feb 10th 2015 at 11:16:08 AM

[up][up][up][up][up][up]That doesn't make it any better.

[up][up]That is essentially what's happening. Marvel gets to use Spider-Man in team-ups and Avengers films but Sony still distributes his movies and maintains some level of control.

[up]I don't think so. Honestly? There's no way Peter will play the same role he did in the comics. There's simply no way it works in this continuity and they've already said that secret I Ds will not be the core issue.

edited 10th Feb '15 11:17:30 AM by comicwriter


Total posts: 186,763
Top