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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26051: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:33:56 AM

I'd really rather not because quite frankly the fandom's obsession with Loki as a pwecious widdle baby who just needs a hug and never does anything wrong is tiring for me. I'll gladly accept "space madness" but the explanation that he was kidnapped and brainwashed always made me roll my eyes.

I was happy at the very least TDW didn't have Loki claiming he was under someone else's control.

Having him fight alongside the Avengers in anything other than a slimy Enemy Mine situation that's for his personal gain would scream Pandering to the Base to me.

edited 9th Feb '15 11:34:47 AM by comicwriter

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#26052: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:35:44 AM

I want Loki to die in Ragnarok. I want it to be pathetic, and screaming, and painful, and without beauty or mercy or any poetic suffering.

My various fanfics.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#26053: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:36:28 AM

@Tobias

Well said. In terms of "Loki's ideology" if you call it that. Loki is very egotistical and even cruel, but when acting normal, his ideology is basically broadly in favor of a (benevolent) absolute monarch and more importantly, he thinks he's the right person for the job.

The whole attitude of being against free will in The Avengers (and as you say, being basically a cringing slave himself) seems off.

Also, I don't think Loki is a fantastic puppetmaster (and I don't think you were arguing this either), but yeah, his plan is pretty bad.

edited 9th Feb '15 11:39:43 AM by Hodor2

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26055: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:37:27 AM

[up][up][up]I wouldn't go that far, but I don't want Ragnarok to be a BS Author's Saving Throw that absolves Loki of his action and has him ending up on the side of the angels.

edited 9th Feb '15 11:37:50 AM by comicwriter

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#26056: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:38:52 AM

I want Loki to take a big ol' flaming sword to the face.

My various fanfics.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#26057: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:44:11 AM

I want the

"FOR ASGARD!"
"FOR MIDGARD!"
"FOR MYSELF!"

moment

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#26058: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:45:52 AM

I could see Loki dying like he did in Siegenote , giving the heroes an edge in the fight only to be stopped and killed by the bigger bad.

Edit: [up]That's a great moment.

edited 9th Feb '15 11:48:14 AM by LordofLore

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26060: Feb 9th 2015 at 11:57:39 AM

The thing is Loki in the first movie was not really about the power. It was never about having the throne, it was always about proving that he was better than Thor. If he had wanted the throne, he could have allowed Laufey to kill Odin and then either killed Laufey or keep true to their agreement. But that was not his goal. He wanted to be Odin's favourite son. The Avengers tries to spin it in a way that he attacks the earth because he wants to get one over Thor, and perhaps that might be part of it but interestingly he thinks that Thor pushed him into the abyss when in fact, Loki let go. There is something wrong with his memories at this point, and the way he says "it is too late to stop this" as well as his talks with the other suggests that he is not fully in control over the situation. And in Thor 2 he is back to desiring the acceptance of his family about everything else, even though he pushes them away. And he actually does keep his word and helps Thor and protects Jane for him.

There is a certain tragic in Loki's character (and now that doesn't mean he is a poor innocent wooby). He hates himself because he is a racist when it comes to Jotunns, and he hurts the people who love him him the most even though he actually wants this love but is not ready to admit it to himself out of stupid pride. Or because he truly doesn't believe that they could love a Jotunn.

Like I said, in dire need of therapy.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#26061: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:00:24 PM

I maintain that Loki can be both an evil, irredeemable piece of shit and a severely broken and miserable person.

We're always talking in here about how we feel like the villains have no personality or characterization but Loki does and everyone hates him for it seemingly entirely because it means he inspires pity in others. It's irritating.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#26062: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:04:03 PM

The anti-fangirl sentiment is strong in this fora.

Me, I like Loki the same way I like Ward, they're villainous wild cards that are really good at being pretty danged evil.

The Blog The Art
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26063: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:16:25 PM

[up][up] I second that.

Similarly, he can have been under the influence of the scepter in Avengers without being a poor, innocent, misunderstood DILP. We have the trope Jerkass Victim for a reason.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:16:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26064: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:21:21 PM

We're always talking in here about how we feel like the villains have no personality or characterization but Loki does and everyone hates him for it seemingly entirely because it means he inspires pity in others.

It's the exact opposite for me. I love how Loki is depicted in the movies because I feel like they did a good job of giving him a sympathetic backstory while not making it an excuse for why he's an evil piece of shit.

He's a wonderfully nuanced villain which is why I find it annoying when people insist that his actions must be because he was brainwashed and he's totally innocent.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:23:27 PM by comicwriter

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#26065: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:22:17 PM

And you can sympathize with him without thinking he's just a poor, misunderstood softy who's never done anything wrong.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26066: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:24:44 PM

[up]Bingo.

To quote one of my favorite shows, "Cool motive, still murder."

I think Hannibal Lectre has a tragic, understandable tearjerker backstory, but that doesn't mean he's not a psychotic murderer or that the horrible things he does aren't his fault.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:25:32 PM by comicwriter

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#26067: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:26:14 PM

I do sympathize with him, and do like him as a character, and do feel sorry for him.

At the same time, trying to kill a planet with a giant teleportation laser is not cool. And if all the stuff with the Chitauri was of his own free will, then that's not cool either.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#26068: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:40:40 PM

I've never once seen anyone in here argue that he's a softy or just misunderstood or not really evil. In other places, rarely, but never here. Every once in a while someone will insinuate that someone, somewhere, has done this, which immediately prompts everyone in the room to begin fervently denying that they've said such a thing. It's all very strange.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#26069: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:45:15 PM

[up]

This. I get the impression that some posters here want him to be a Complete Monster, but he isn't (even in Whedon's version). I guess it's somewhat against the norm for the arch enemy of the hero to not be a Complete Monster, but a big part of Loki's character is that on some level he cares for Thor (which doesn't argue at all against him being evil, but it does frame him in a somewhat different than other arch enemy characters).

Edit- Incidentally, something I've posted in the Complete Monster thread that's probably applicable here- A character being irredeemable is not the same thing as a character lacking redeeming qualities. Loki is probably irredeemable- I don't see him pulling a Heel–Face Turn and if a film does hint at him being redeemed, it will almost certainly be a case of Death Equals Redemption. However, he is not totally devoid of redeeming qualities.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:48:50 PM by Hodor2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26070: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:47:45 PM

The moral of the story is yes, it is possible to Ron the Death Eater a villain, just like it is possible to Draco in Leather Pants a hero.

Characters are more complicated than a binary switch between Good Guy and Bad Guy.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:48:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#26072: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:49:59 PM

What I like about Loki is that he keeps me guessing. I am never sure about his motivations. Like, in the first movie I never expected him to kill Laufey. And in The Avengers he looks pretty drawn and pissed off with the other. Which makes me wonder (like always) if there is more than which we saw on the surface - because with Loki there usually is. That doesn't mean that whatever is beyond the surface is positive...you know "hey, he never intended to kill Odin....he just intended to kill his true father...eh...not sure if that's better....."

What I consider very annoying, though, is that some people just bash the character because...it is cool to do so? I am not sure. And that you get immediatly accused of being a "fangirl" when you say that you find the character compelling.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#26073: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:54:46 PM

[up][up] Honestly, making Loki a fundamentally good guy who's just misunderstood would make him less hot, to me. I mean, that may just be my thing for bad boys, but, like, I don't want his hotness ruined by him not being evil.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#26074: Feb 9th 2015 at 12:56:58 PM

[up]Right? He's at his most charming when he's being a conniving bastard.

Though ironically I thought he looked better with shorter hair.

edited 9th Feb '15 12:57:22 PM by comicwriter

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26075: Feb 9th 2015 at 1:19:56 PM

I want Loki to die in Ragnarok. I want it to be pathetic, and screaming, and painful, and without beauty or mercy or any poetic suffering.

Sadly, that won't happen. He's very much confirmed to be in Infinity War.


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