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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#25426: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:55:42 PM

Honestly that's why I just liked the concept of Hypertime.

BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#25427: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:56:51 PM

Could you remind me of what Hypertime actually was? I've heard the term, I'm sure I knew what it was at one point, but because I've never really understood it, I don't remember what its deal was.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#25428: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:58:37 PM

It was a concept at DC that basically said every story existed in its own small universe with various other relevant stories occurring in a Broad Strokes fashion.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#25429: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:59:05 PM

It apparently never caught on because the writers hated it.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25430: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:01:34 PM

According to Wikipedia it's basically the idea that every story is exactly as canon as any other. Even if they contradict each other. So, like, the original 30s Superman comics are exactly as "canon" as, say, Man of Steel.

Which, if you have to explain that, it certainly sounds like the explanation I'd prefer the most.

edited 28th Jan '15 10:01:59 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#25431: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:03:40 PM

[up][up]Basically. I personally thought saying "Everything published is canon" probably makes just as much sense as "Everything published before 1985 is non-canon. Wait now it is and everything after 1986 is only semi-canon. Wait none of it's canon. Wait Batman's history is canon but only the stuff that doesn't involve the most recent Batgirls. Wait..."

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#25432: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:05:32 PM

Hypertime sounds awesome and it really should be the default state of any work with dozens of authors and decades of history.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#25433: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:07:40 PM

The Infinite Crisis series resolved the continuity problem in a different way, according to Di Dio, who in a Newsarama interview said "The great part about Crisis is that all mistakes and retcons are time anomalies."[2] Di Dio's solution, as seen in the pages of Infinite Crisis, postulates reality-changing "continuity waves", generated by Superboy-Prime punching the walls of his extradimensional prison.

Yes. Clearly that was the superior option, DiDio.

edited 28th Jan '15 10:07:54 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#25434: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:08:34 PM

[up][up][up][up], [up][up] So, if we assume that blatantly contradictory things like Marvel Zombies and Age of Ultron are equally canonical...

How is that any different from a multiverse, with the exception of the writers being lazy and not even offering an explanation for how these two blatantly contradictory things can both be canonical?

edited 28th Jan '15 10:08:58 PM by Khfan429

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#25435: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:12:08 PM

All this talk of effort. Tell me, what has working hard at making sure stories line up with each other a certain way amounted to? Not good stories, certainly. Which should be where the effort is really going. Into creation, not rules-lawyering.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#25436: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:14:45 PM

At this point, I like the Star Wars approach.

"The Expanded Universe has gotten huge, and confusing, and it's not going to gel with our new movies at all. So it's done now. Wrapped up, and put on its shelf. It's there if you want it. Here's the new one we're starting, where we're actually, you know, thinking about how these stories fit together now."

Which, I think, is the root of the problem. When these characters were being created, no one thought they'd last the better part of a century with no signs of slowing down, so no one was worried if what they were writing would have to make sense more than a couple years later. And during the Silver Age they didn't even always care if they made sense from issue to issue (again, mostly at DC). It hasn't been that long that a concentrated effort has been made to have their histories actually make sense as a cohesive narrative.

DC had a shot to do a relaunch right, but they wanted to hold onto their recent successes. So major Batman and Green Lantern storylines still "counted" after they relaunched, which ends up being more confusing than anything. Marvel has a shot to do it right coming up. Let Secret Wars play out the way it's going to play out, and act as a bridge between the old and the new, to ease people who are already reading into things. But once it's done, start the new universe fresh with a brand new slate of #1's, where what has come before really doesn't matter. Let your mainline universe actually start at the beginning. I'm not saying have Peter Parker be 15 again and just tell the same story over. I'm saying let things be different than they were.

But of course, they're probably going to fuck it up.

edited 28th Jan '15 10:16:57 PM by BadWolf21

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#25437: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:17:28 PM

Well, initially the Whizzer was said to be the father of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch

but one of the writers noticed that that didn't line up with comments they had made about their childhood.

So some random roma guy turned up claiming he was their dad.

But that didn't fit all the given tidbits either so they went back to the drawing board and spun an epic involving a talking cow that fit all the hints given and all the misfires up until then.

Which is how Magneto, MASTER OF MAGNET became the father of Wanda and Pietro.

Which has led to a number of very good stories.

Tangentially, I live for strained retcons like that. The writer even put a three page essay in the back of the comic explaining their thought process and why they decided to do it like they did. Fun fun.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#25438: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:18:31 PM

[up][up][up]All well fine and good to say that, but what's going to happen under the Hypertime concept when a writer who doesn't understand a character starts writing the line? What happens when you create Civil War era Iron Man or Ultimate... just about anything that isn't Spider-Man and a select few others?

Sure, you can claim that other stories where they aren't derailed are canon... but under this system, the derailing stories are still equally canon. So how do you fix it? Either you don't, or you have to use the same retcons and plot twists that weigh down the current universes!

edited 28th Jan '15 10:19:20 PM by Khfan429

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#25439: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:20:45 PM

You just...ignore them.

I mean, you can do that. It works.

For the past thirty or so years Doctor Who has decided not to acknowledge the Doctor once nearly strangled his companions to death, or that another time he nearly beat a caveman to death with a rock, or that time he encouraged the racial discrimination of the Chinese. Or that the Brigadier once committed genocide against a race of lizard men.

No one's complained thus far.

edited 28th Jan '15 10:21:32 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25440: Jan 28th 2015 at 10:21:20 PM

but what's going to happen under the Hypertime concept when a writer who doesn't understand a character starts writing the line?
The... same thing that happens now? The book is most likely bad, and people review it poorly.
but under this system, the derailing stories are still equally canon.
Yes.
So how do you fix it?
You don't? What is there to fix?

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25441: Jan 29th 2015 at 3:07:47 AM

[up][up] Comics can actually be very good at that when they need to be. What about all of those racial slurs that they used to throw around in the WWII days? Are those still in continuity?

Look, I'm going to be honest, comic aren't Doctor Who. Doctor Who has been playing fast and loose with continuity since it's inception - comics on the other hand, have not. Or at least, they have, and the difference is that the writers are the ones to explain the discrepancies, rather than the fans.

Now, if we don't have a canon for comics, what exactly does that mean? Does it mean that writers aren't allowed to used past stories as reference or a basis for their own stories, for fear of confusing readers? Because that's just as restrictive as not being allowed to contradict past stories at all.

Ultimately, I think it might be a little late to go for "no canon" as far as comics are concerned - it's too deeply ingrained in the industry, and a lot of people seem to like it that way.

edited 29th Jan '15 3:10:37 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
MisterNoh Troper formerly known as Nohbody from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Mu
Troper formerly known as Nohbody
#25442: Jan 29th 2015 at 3:12:05 AM

While I don't know where it would be more appropriate, a discussion about canonicity (so to speak) of comic books doesn't seem to be more than tangentially relevant to a thread about a live action film franchise.

Especially not multiple thread pages worth of posts. tongue

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#25443: Jan 29th 2015 at 3:35:58 AM

One thing in which the MCU is superior over the Comic books is that it has so far a more or less intact continuity. And I hope it will stay that way. No alternate timelines or anyting like that, only one consistent world in which everything fits together.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#25445: Jan 29th 2015 at 5:17:13 AM

[up]Who? You mean the most boring of all the heroes which I wouldn't mind dying in the next movie?

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#25446: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:20:01 AM

LEGO Marvel’s Avengers

Avengers Assemble! Experience the first console videogame featuring characters and storylines from the blockbuster film Marvel’s The Avengers and the much anticipated sequel Marvel’s Avengers: Age of Ultron, and more. Play as the most powerful Super Heroes in their quest to save humanity. The game will be available in fall 2015 for the Xbox One, all-in-one games and entertainment system, the Xbox 360 games and entertainment system from Microsoft, Play Station®4 and Play Station®3 computer entertainment systems, Play Station®Vita handheld entertainment system, the Wii U system from Nintendo, Nintendo 3DS hand-held system, and Windows PC.

Oh, and the Helicarrier is a LEGO set now.

edited 29th Jan '15 6:21:34 AM by LordofLore

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#25447: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:37:57 AM

Experience the first console videogame featuring characters and storylines from the blockbuster film Marvel’s The Avengers

*Looks at Lego Marvel Superheroes*

Experience the first console videogame featuring characters and storylines from the blockbuster film Marvel’s The Avengers

Well if you're going to be intellectually dishonest about it. The actual first game was extremely influenced by the movies. Like, majorly so. I mean, they use the modern version of Hawkeye for god's sakes and you have to buy DLC for his classic costume.

Nick Fury doesn't even get his 616 counterpart, he's the full Sam Jackson. The game prominently featured Hawkeye and Black Widow as SHIELD agents for most of the beginning of the game. It STARTS OUT with Hulk and Iron Man and when Hulk transforms back into Bruce Banner it's the same hair and purple shirt like Mark Ruffalo form the movie. This advertising campaign is entirely disingenuous.

edited 29th Jan '15 6:39:30 AM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#25449: Jan 29th 2015 at 6:57:29 AM

God I hope not. I figured the point of another Lego marvel game would be to expand their character cache and their abilities, not reduce it.

The Blog The Art
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#25450: Jan 29th 2015 at 7:01:22 AM

There is also a LEGO Jurassic World video game coming out.


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