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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#25376: Jan 28th 2015 at 7:54:23 PM

[up][up] Didn't you know? Anybody can be a communist!

Oh God! Natural light!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#25377: Jan 28th 2015 at 7:56:26 PM

[up]Look at this communist, spreading his communist ideology.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#25378: Jan 28th 2015 at 7:57:20 PM

Remember folks, mercilessly beating up unarmed citizens for espousing a relatively nonmalicious, if economically flawed, view is totally patriotic and heroic! Just follow good ol' Cap's example.

Like how Superman taught us how to "slap a Jap" back in World War II.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25379: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:39:54 PM

[up]x4 Yeah, but I think that would make the entire idea of a Shared Universe even more confusing. There'd be the Iron Man from Spider-Man's continuity, the Iron Man from Captain America's continuity, the Iron Man from Iron Man's continuity...

Or I guess they could just go with Status Quo Is God, but that'd limit the kinds of stories they could tell. Or they could do away with the Shared Universe altogether and have each superhero be separate, but that's not really how Marvel rolls...

edited 28th Jan '15 8:46:55 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25380: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:42:21 PM

If there is no canon, then it doesn't matter. Iron Man is Iron Man no matter where he comes from.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25381: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:44:00 PM

[up]So that would be Status Quo Is God, then? Is Iron Man allowed to have character development? Can that development be apparent outside his own series, or is that too much continuity? Is he forced to wear the same costume forever so he can be universal in all appearances outside Iron Man comics?

edited 28th Jan '15 8:44:39 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25382: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:46:42 PM

Character development is fine, I think. Costume changes are fine. Continuity and canon aren't the same thing, really.

Like, Doctor Who has character development despite having basically no canon. So it can work.

It's when you get into "Okay, let's kill this guy. Shit why did we kill him. Let's bring him back! Quick! Come up with a stupid explanation for it!" that it gets annoying.

edited 28th Jan '15 8:47:45 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#25383: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:47:30 PM

How is that different from what you're pitching?

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25384: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:48:07 PM

What I'm pitching is not bothering to explain it. At all.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#25385: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:49:22 PM

I have mixed feelings about that approach. On the one hand it would settle all canon and continuity debates once and for all. On the other hand if there's no continuity you'd have to assume that any given story could happen without any other story. That makes it hard to make meaningful changes to the mythos or status quo.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25386: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:50:46 PM

I wouldn't object to the comics having less continuity, either. I try to read some of the 616 comcis, but it can be intimidating when I have to run to Marvel Wiki every two panels. But I still don't like that they're rebooting 616 and the Ultimate universe because that's probably just going to turn into DC where I have to learn the difference between pre-crisis and post-crisis and New 52 and then some post-crisis characters show back up thanks to dimension hopping and then the universe implodes again yaaaaaaay coooooomiiiiiics!

What they really ought to do is mandate that writers tailor the stories to a general audience to avoid Continuity Lock-Out.

edited 28th Jan '15 8:51:59 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#25387: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:51:11 PM

@Mukora's third-most-recent post: Unless he comes from a hypernova. Then he'd be Nickel Man.

edited 28th Jan '15 8:51:33 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#25388: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:51:22 PM

[up][up]Okay, then literally nothing has any lasting significance, because it'll just at most get a Hand Wave down the line.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25389: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:53:45 PM

In theory, it ought to be possible to write stories that don't violate continuity but also don't force the reader to know the continuity in detail to understand the story.

edited 28th Jan '15 8:54:03 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25390: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:55:09 PM

No, that's not true, but even if it was... so?

Like, you can still have entire storylines that only have continuity to themselves and it would still work. You could still have character development and stuff that exists only in the confines of that particular storyline and that would be fine. Maybe even better because it means you can pick up the first issue of any given series and not have to read 6000 previous issues for context.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#25391: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:56:12 PM

[up][up]That's probably the best approach although it isn't always possible. At this point unless you're dealing with an origin story just about any story you write will assume you have a passing familiarity with the character. They don't explain who Cap, Bucky, Agent 13, etc. are in every issue of Captain America.

[up]How is that not true? As I understand it your basic premise is that comics should just do away with continuity and have writers do whatever stories they want. That approach basically makes every single story(or group of stories by a single author) into its own mini-universe. Sure the writer can have things grow and change in that universe but at the end of the day it doesn't matter because their story doesn't get to dictate the future direction of the book.

edit: Given the way the comic industry has been floundering I sometimes think it might be better if Marvel just quit altogether and focused entirely on adaptations into films and TV shows. They could release graphic novels occasionally but I think stuff like the MCU is where their characters have the best chance at survival.

edited 28th Jan '15 9:00:02 PM by Kostya

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25392: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:59:00 PM

Again: Doctor Who. No canon. Over fifty years of TV episodes, movies, radio dramas, comics... but the characters still develop. There's still interesting things that happen. There are still callbacks and references and allusions to stuff from the series's past.

But you could watch any season or serial or radio series and basically figure out what's happening pretty quickly. And there's never a moment where they do something and feel the need to explain why that works by the rules of the universe they created- or if they do, it's a punchline or setup to a joke.

edited 28th Jan '15 9:00:53 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#25393: Jan 28th 2015 at 8:59:55 PM

[up] x4 It is. They're called the movies.

And there again, we see the problem. You can only go so long before there's too much continuity to keep track of and it becomes more difficult to jump in. You can watch any Phase 1 movie and be more or less totally fine. You might wonder who the guy Robert Downey Jr. is playing at the end of the Incredible Hulk is, and you should probably watch Iron Man before Iron Man 2, but you'll be pretty much okay.

But you can't really, say, follow The First Avenger directly with Winter Soldier without watching The Avengers in between. Or probably watch Age of Ultron without knowing that SHIELD no longer exists as of Winter Soldier. It's not nearly as bad as the comics, which have had monthly instalments of several series over the course of decades, especially when you can have new, unconnected things like Guardians from time to time, but it will get there eventually.

[up] I'm confused as to why you keep insisting Doctor Who has no canon. It does. It doesn't inspire the virulent debates that other Expanded Universes tend to, but it's still there.

edited 28th Jan '15 9:05:27 PM by BadWolf21

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#25394: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:04:41 PM

Bullshit, Doctor Who has no canon. It has a universe, it has a history, it has a mythos, it has a reality and rules. Those things make up a canon.

My various fanfics.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25395: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:05:03 PM

[up][up]Well, Infinity Wars is fast approaching, and if you want to know what the Infinity Gems are, you'd better hope you watched some random movie about a space raccoon and his buddies.

edited 28th Jan '15 9:06:28 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#25396: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:05:26 PM

There is no canon in Doctor Who.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
BadWolf21 Since: May, 2010
#25397: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:07:01 PM

Kostya: They can't really do that, or they'd lose the trademarks on all their characters. And possibly their name.

[up][up] On the other hand, Guardians is just the most recent movie to come out. At some point, someone's going to have to tell the Earth-based heroes what they are.

[up] They can say that all they want, that doesn't stop there from being a canon.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#25399: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:08:51 PM

[up][up]I guess they could just roll the footage of the Infinity Gems' backstory again come Infinity War.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#25400: Jan 28th 2015 at 9:10:14 PM

Canon is simply saying "This stuff happened in the universe we are describing". It tells you what's relevant to the media. Doctor Who certainly has a canon. It might be a very open and contradictory canon but it's still a canon.

Bad Wolf: Even if they're using them in the graphic novels?

edited 28th Jan '15 9:11:06 PM by Kostya


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