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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

chino514 (Apprentice)
#185776: Sep 29th 2025 at 6:31:04 AM

So... it's a MCU Fatigue?

(Oop, page topping!)

Edited by chino514 on Sep 29th 2025 at 9:31:23 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185777: Sep 29th 2025 at 6:42:59 AM

The Disney machine has become way too massive that they can no longer sustain their own massive weight.

Its a lot of mistakes compiled with them making too much products that even the well received stuff (Moon Knight, Shang-Chi) can take years before receiving any kind of follow-up.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 29th 2025 at 7:23:27 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#185778: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:21:17 AM

Honestly, if the MCU has to die, it had a good run.

They can reboot it in a few years if Doomsday bombs at the box office.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#185779: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:24:19 AM

There's no way Doomsday actively bombs. But a box-office disappointment? That's entirely possible.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#185780: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:25:44 AM

Well that depends on how they've budgeted. If they are expecting billions in boxoffice and have calculated a break even for that. I could see it bombing.

Rebooting would be a problem because we'd snap back to retelling Tony and Steve stories rather than more diverse cast of modern marvel.

Edited by dcutter2 on Sep 29th 2025 at 3:27:05 PM

M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#185781: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:26:42 AM

Well, as youtuber Cartoonishi has said a video, its not MCU fatigue but more Disney fatigue. Ironically having the similar production models and release windows ended up being a net negative. Now only the most exceptional are seeming to break out of homogenized properties.

I think like all empires, the MCU downturn was inevitable but its interesting that we claim Disney has so much IP yet the few major IP was honed it may have been those IP's undoing

Pantheon server for all who click here. Lost too much money and time, this coaster ain’t stopping.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185782: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:31:12 AM

Just look at Disney's handling of Star Wars. Even their new golden child The Mandalorian has been going on a downturn with the latest season and the trailer for the upcoming Mando movie seems to have generated a largely muted response from what I've seen.

Barring Andor they don't really have consistently well received stuff.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#185783: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:35:25 AM

Rebooting would be a problem because we'd snap back to retelling Tony and Steve stories rather than more diverse cast of modern marvel.
Yes! A great opportunity to bring back Robert Downey Jr. and Chris Evans!

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#185784: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:37:32 AM

I've noticed whenever someone wants to criticise these franchises it's always "Disney" that gets talked about and praise goes to Marvel/Lucasfilm/whoever.

But Disney was own the MCU since basically the beginning. (2009) and pre-Star wars didn't have consistently well received stuff before Disney took over.

I'm not sure Disney is the problem or it least the entire problem.

Edited by dcutter2 on Sep 29th 2025 at 3:38:16 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#185785: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:41:54 AM

Disney funds them so (logically) the buck stops with them,any decisions Marvel's makes are done with Disney approval,so naturally Disney gets a lion's share of the blame every time a film bombs

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#185786: Sep 29th 2025 at 7:53:44 AM

We do know the last Bob who ran the Disney had quantity over quality approach in investing in high budget projects to fill Disney Plus’s catalogue. Got him kicked out when it was made clear this was not a profitable approach at all for streaming let alone the company.

In regards to the MCU, from what we could tell, Kevin Feige saw it as an experimental opportunity for Marvel Studios to produce television but got too much to handle which he would admit. No red flags he saw when it started.

Edited by M1gamiTensei on Sep 29th 2025 at 7:55:59 AM

Pantheon server for all who click here. Lost too much money and time, this coaster ain’t stopping.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#185787: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:22:23 AM

Didn't Marvel Studios start independently from Disney, since they started a few years before Disney bought out Marvel? I believe The Avengers (2012) was the first MCU film that was properly produced under Disney, with Paramount only having distributor rights for the initial theatrical run.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Sep 29th 2025 at 1:22:42 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#185788: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:27:36 AM

Imo Marvel Studios' big problem now is that because of their great success, their thought process has become more about the success and the brand than about the storytelling and the actual movies they're making, and their decision making process has become even more corporate.

You can see that with how insanely hatcheted up the current phase is, because they're constantly shifting plans in order to go for whatever looks like the safe option. It all feel so... focus tested, rather than being about trying to bring cool new stories. It's why movies like GOTG 3 stand out as pretty great, where Gunn says "the story is the point, don't get in my way."

Or how so many films or projects right now are less about the characters themselves and more about introducing or building up other stuff - (people gave IM 2 crap for that back in the day, but it's ten minutes of plot-relevant SHIELD contant had nothing on Quantumania), making it feel like the films they're making now are less important than the next big marketable thing they want those films to lead to, to the point that Deadpool & Wolverine and She Hulk both blatantly criticize how the rest of the franchise is doing it. Not to mention Thunderbolts again after we just got off that subject, but it's marketing spoiling the film's ending so it can go "LOOK, IT'S THE NEW AVENGERS! WE FINALLY HAVE AVENGERS FOR THE NEXT MOVIE! AREN'T YOU EXCITED?!" is another example of that.

Lucasfilm went through the same thing (a lot of big name franchises do), though tbh as much as people give Lucasfilm crap for the ST they nowadays come off as having already learned their lesson the hard way and are trying to change their approach. But Marvel Studios, I feel, is in the middle of their "learning the hard way" phase and not in their "realizing they need to change" phase.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 29th 2025 at 10:29:45 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185789: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:30:58 AM

God the New Avengers thing is so stupid.

You already have a new team in the Thunderbolts, why do they need to be Avengers?

You should have just sold the Thunderbolts as their own thing. You can still have them be an equivalent to the Avengers but they don't need to be literally named after them if you aren't titling the whole thing "Dark Avengers" from the start.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#185791: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:34:31 AM

I do like the "a new team of Avengers made by a sleazy politician intending to cash in on the name, while the actual members while assholes do have some potential to do good" concept and most of how its done in the film - it feels like the ultimate evolution of the US Agent thing - but the way it was handled by the marketing sucks and it should've come way earlier in the phase so there could've been a good running contention between them and the Schrodinger's Team Sam has.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 29th 2025 at 10:34:53 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185792: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:45:06 AM

The movie also fumbles it a bit because similar to the Suicide Squad films it focuses too much on the characters redeeming themselves so by the end of the story they don't feel very villainous or anti-heroic.

The team needs a token evil teammate, a loyal government plant similar to Peacemaker in TSS or in the comics during Dark Avengers Osborn had Bullseye has his personal hatchet man and used him to murder Sentry's wife to keep the former under his control.

So far Walker is probably the evilest of the Thunderbolts but even then he's more of a macho loser no one respects than anyone particularly scary. He's like a less menacing Peacemaker.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#185793: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:45:48 AM

The movie also fumbles it a bit because similar to the Suicide Squad films it focuses too much on the characters redeeming themselves so by the end of the story they don't feel very villainous or anti-heroic.

I don't think that's a fumble. The movie never presents itself as being about villains in the first place. It's a movie about doing better with your life, so the entire cast is characters who were barely evil in the first place.

In that context, the Token Evil Teammate was Walker, iirc.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 29th 2025 at 10:46:53 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185794: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:51:10 AM

Okay so its less fumbling and more the desires of what the film wants to do runs opposite with the desire of having a government-sponsored kill team.

The film wants to focus on a group of broken people coming together and healing which isn't a bad thing, it just means they don't work as the Psycho Rangers to the Avengers.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#185795: Sep 29th 2025 at 10:55:15 AM

To be fair, the original Avengers was also intended to be a government sponsored kill team, and likewise the members involved didn't want any part of that either. It's just that Fury didn't really care because he's not-so-secretly an idealist, and so it didn't becomes a huge problem until Ross took over for Fury and tried to push them back into that role.

My only problem with the way the film presented the concept is that Bucky was there too. They do the "and everyone present in the story becomes an Avenger" thing, but while it works for the rest of the cast it's blatantly out of character for Bucky to be involved, and it makes it stand out that they put less focus into Bucky's story than the rest of the cast.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 29th 2025 at 10:57:52 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#185796: Sep 29th 2025 at 11:00:27 AM

There is a bit on interesting dynamic on Bucky is ironically the member with the greatest PR right now, since he's currently a politician with close ties to the original Avengers despite his past as an assassin for HYDRA who infamously helped split the original team apart. I would be interested to see if they try to carry that dynamic into Doomsday, where he's trying to act as a mediator between The New Avengers and Sam's group.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185797: Sep 29th 2025 at 11:02:32 AM

Bucky is like when a team-book includes a popular characters but they are extremally out of focus, contributing fairly little to the plot and character work making it clear they are only there to shove in a big name figure to give the title more attention.

The current New Avengers comic apparently has examples of this, such as including Eddie Brock/Carnage onto a team comprised of Bucky, Black Widow, Clea, Namor, and X-23 but he doesn't do much of anything beyond being the team jokester.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#185798: Sep 29th 2025 at 11:03:04 AM

[up] Sorta like a "and hey, Wolverine was here too!" thing, right?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#185799: Sep 29th 2025 at 11:05:54 AM

[up] Exactly that.

Interestingly apparently the original script had Bucky in I think a more minor role so they actually boosted his screentime in the rewrites.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#185800: Sep 29th 2025 at 11:14:52 AM

They might as well, I'd probably complain of Bucky didn't have anything to really work with as a character and was just a bog-standard 11th-Hour Ranger. Him struggling with the realities of his new political career is at least a new aspect of the character to explore.

Edited by chasemaddigan on Sep 29th 2025 at 2:15:23 PM


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