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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#157651: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:00:52 PM

[up][up] She-Hulk was advertised as a legal comedy…that was absolutely terrified of engaging with the legal side of the equation. Like, it’s an actual thing that one of the producers said they couldn’t figure out how to make court stuff funny which is like…

What? Like, go watch My Cousin Vinny or Night Court. Legal comedy is a very well entrenched genre and the idea that just writing it off is a reasonable thing to do is absurd.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#157652: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:01:58 PM

Or even Better Call Saul. Sure, its legal humor is dark as you'd expect from the franchise, but still, it's there.

The legend has returned.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#157653: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:02:59 PM

Seems to me like the writers were on a strict deadline and didn't have time to try to make the legal stuff funny, and thus they played with what they felt was their own strengths.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#157654: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:03:20 PM

Oh, man. Superhero Night Court sounds fantastic.

Granted, Night Court itself often left the court stuff behind almost entirely when the writers just wanted to do something else too.

M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#157655: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:10:07 PM

If there should have been any animated Marvel show, I think She-Hulk would have worked better. Not only does it make She-Hulk less jarring in its effects but also they could go zany with the villains they show. And yes, I am asking for a Harvey Birdman in the MCU.

Weird how the MCU is making animation only for what I could say “offshoots” to the main timeline when Star Wars embraced its animated content as essential under the Disney umbrella (and yes, different mediums clash I do not care).

Edited by M1gamiTensei on Jul 1st 2023 at 10:12:16 AM

Pantheon server for all who click here. Lost too much money and time, this coaster ain’t stopping.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#157656: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:12:40 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] That seems like a recurring problem

Show/movie was advertised as a specific thing but the writers refuse to actually fully engage in it so it just winds up being half-assed

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#157657: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:22:17 PM

Couldn't they hire writers who actually could engage with the legal stuff?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#157658: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:31:22 PM

Or at least, consultants to do a second pass.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#157659: Jul 1st 2023 at 10:47:44 PM

[up][up][up][up]I would personally love to see an animated Harvey Birdman-style She-Hulk show that wasn't constrained by having to tie into the MCU, actually go crazy with the Marvel characters showcased; obscure, mainstream, literally-only-a-handful-of-people-will-recognize-this-as-a-real-character, without worrying about connecting to the main franchise or potentially making it so certain characters can't be used properly in other projects because they were just a joke appearance. (coughcoughWreckingCrewcoughcough) And I say this as somebody who liked the live-action show.

Seriously, imagine the kind of random-ass clients Jen could have in a cartoon: Brute Force, US-1, Kal-AOL, Nightcat... who else has Linkara talked about?

Ooh, great idea: the comicbook Big Hero 6 sues Marvel for abandoning them entirely in favor of the Disney versions.

Edited by lbssb on Jul 1st 2023 at 1:51:45 PM

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#157660: Jul 1st 2023 at 11:10:24 PM

Like, it’s an actual thing that one of the producers said they couldn’t figure out how to make court stuff funny which is like…

What? Like, go watch My Cousin Vinny or Night Court. Legal comedy is a very well entrenched genre and the idea that just writing it off is a reasonable thing to do is absurd.

This complaint is even more bizarre and nonsensical given the very source material the show was adapting from. You know, the She-Hulk comics in which there are decades' worth of stories of legal comedy? Wtf do you mean you can't think of anything?

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#157661: Jul 2nd 2023 at 1:57:08 AM

If there should have been any animated Marvel show, I think She-Hulk would have worked better. Not only does it make She-Hulk less jarring in its effects but also they could go zany with the villains they show. And yes, I am asking for a Harvey Birdman in the MCU.

I could also see a more serious Hulk series working.

For instance, how many people shared the horrifying “Illumination is making a Zelda movie!” fake news versus the boring “Illumination is not making a Zelda movie” real news.

Except the latter wasn't actually a denial on Melelandri's part. He was asked if it was true and said that he doesn't know where the report came from, but doesn't give a hard denial.

Edited by Cortez on Jul 2nd 2023 at 5:03:06 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#157662: Jul 2nd 2023 at 7:17:50 AM

I didn't mind She-Hulk not doing legal stuff at first, but honestly with enough time passing since I watched it I decided to blame the lead writers and producers for refusing to find anyone to help with the legal side.

You claim Ally McBeal as inspiration? Then get David E. Kelley, the guy who made that show, onboard, or any of the writers who helped him on his many laywer shows like Boston Legal. I feel like the only reason I defended this show in the past is simply because most of the dislike is poisoned by the "M-She-U" outrage losers and it's hard to read any criticism as legit when you're worried about running into them.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#157663: Jul 2nd 2023 at 9:49:11 AM

Those guys always ruin any discussion.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#157664: Jul 2nd 2023 at 11:47:35 AM

I honestly think She-Hulk does fine for what it is, which is a more actively light-hearted modern Slice of Life sitcom. Which is all well and good but definitely false advertising with how lacking the legal portion of it was. Don't even have to peer through She-Hulk's entire catalog either - the run by Dan Slott that actively inspired the show was also the one known for actively trying to be a superhero legal comedy.

I do get the concern on wanting to be critical of a thing without being looped in with the bad-faith bigots and outrage merchants, and I do think it's because the show's ultimately So Okay, It's Average that the pool gets mixed so much (Sarah Z's "Sacrificial Trash" vid does a good job highlighting that phenomenon). However I don't think it's that difficult to tell who's coming at it at good faith and who isn't - the chuds didn't exactly hide how much they really wanted the show to be a Backdoor Pilot for more Bruce Banner stuff.

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#157665: Jul 2nd 2023 at 1:55:48 PM

I put this on the show's trivia page months ago, but She-Hulk apparently did have a major legal consultant in Charles Soule (who also wrote a fairly praised She-Hulk run). Marvel seems to highlight his prescene in time for the Daredevil crossover (another character he also wrote).


This is late, but certain ABC afflited news channels incorporated Skrulls into their staff and news reports, in time for Secret Invasion.

Nice way of highlighting species diversity on Earth, I'll tell you.[lol]

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Jul 2nd 2023 at 4:57:24 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#157666: Jul 3rd 2023 at 5:14:42 AM

Which I guess is an issue. Since Jen spends majority of the show grappling with her dislike of She-Hulk, it felt like an elongated origin story with how dragged out her acceptance of her powers is.

Honestly I don't think it helps that it feels like every time Jen does hulk out to help someone else, it's either A) because someone else had to talk her into it; or B) for personal gain (or to avoid a personal problem).

Okey Dokey!
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#157667: Jul 3rd 2023 at 6:43:08 AM

[up] That seems like a weird criticism to me. Jen doesn't want to be a superhero. That's the central thing about her character. She doesn't want to be the person swooping in to save the day.

regulation pigeon
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#157668: Jul 3rd 2023 at 6:45:25 AM

[up]I do think that structure plus the, to be frank, weakness of the legal sides of the show leave it as not about much of anything? I mean, she doesn't want to be a superhero, she wants to be a lawyer. Fine, that's an interesting story, but then they don't know what to do with her being a lawyer, so...what's the show about?

Edited by ECD on Jul 3rd 2023 at 6:45:46 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#157669: Jul 3rd 2023 at 6:58:20 AM

mean, she doesn't want to be a superhero, she wants to be a lawyer. Fine, that's an interesting story, but then they don't know what to do with her being a lawyer, so...what's the show about?

It's a slice of life sitcom. It's about her funny day to day life with her dealing with powers. Rather it works as that is up to the viewer. I think it does but I do get thinking it doesn't.

Honestly I don't think it helps that it feels like every time Jen does hulk out to help someone else, it's either A) because someone else had to talk her into it; or B) for personal gain (or to avoid a personal problem).

Yeah because she is not nor does she want to be a superhero. I found it very refreshing to have a protagonist not want to be a hero.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 3rd 2023 at 8:59:15 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#157670: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:20:09 AM

[up][up] I agree, but saying that the show is bad because Jen doesn't go out and fight crime is a bad take. The show could've absolutely been good with the premise it has if it was done better.

regulation pigeon
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#157671: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:35:38 AM

[up]I don't think it's bad that she doesn't want to suit up and fight crime. I do think it's bad that the show isn't what it was marketed as.

[up][up]Eh...it's sort of a slice of life comedy? Just not, in my view, a very good one, because it's trying to be too many things. The other characters don't get enough development to actually be an ensemble piece, her family is criminally underutilized, while her legal work, with a small handful of exceptions (the illusionist elf, Mr. Immortal and the magicians) are just...not good. And the show can't decide if it wants to be a screwball comedy, or a dramedy about the issues with the legal system.

Which results in stuff like the show just disappearing Blonsky's victims during his parole hearing, or fairly straightforward coercion of opposing parties (or your own clients), which could be very interesting meta-commentary on how easy it is for power, whether physical or social to be misused, but that's clearly not the intent.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#157672: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:40:32 AM

[up] Like I said it's up to the viewer. I think it works and think that the supporting characters get enough development and character such as Pug, Nikki, Blownsky, and Matt to make the comedy work.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#157673: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:42:36 AM

More episodes could have helped

The eternal refrain of the Disney plus shows

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#157674: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:45:56 AM

I just think that it came out at a bad time.People are hyper critical about Marvel's style of comedy these days.So the reception was always going to be sour.

Edited by DeanCole on Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:46:35 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#157675: Jul 3rd 2023 at 7:54:45 AM

I respect She-Hulk what it was trying to do but other than the Daredevil episode which I think nailed the concept.

The fourth wall break into Marvel Studios was a funny idea, but I think spending so long on it undercut She-Hulk’s message. Her argument is that the whole time the story has been trying to force her into a traditional superhero role, complete with a big dumb action scene at the end, but she’s gonna defeat the bad guys in her own super lawyer way. And then the show just abruptly ends shortly thereafter and we never actually see her defeat the bad guys with her court expertise.

This pretty much on the money.

Now picture if they'd done something similar to Netflix's Sandman and have a nine episode series and a second bonus tenth episode. Sell episode 9 as the grand finale then. K.E.V.I.N happens and surprise, there's a 10th episode. Jen's laywer redux of episode 9.

I don't supposed they could ever keep it secret but it feels like something the show needed. rather than making K.E.V.I.N a full on d.e.m.

OTOH I was finale with the stuff in the first episode because they seemed to be going for both Bruce and Jen are both right and wrong. Jen can still be lawyer but Hulk stuff changing her life is inevitable and we sort of got that at the end but the emphasis in the finale of 'this is should be a lawyer show' rather undermined it.


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