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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144526: Jul 21st 2022 at 4:42:32 PM

I'm hoping whatever we get is pretty brutal dark and brutal.

Something fitting for a team of genuine anti-heroes and villain.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#144527: Jul 21st 2022 at 4:49:54 PM

We never had a villain protagonist movie or show before right?

Closest thing is Wandavision

Uni cat
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144528: Jul 21st 2022 at 4:59:28 PM

Some people say Infinity War I say Hawkeye

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#144529: Jul 21st 2022 at 5:01:28 PM

Yeah, Infinity War is Thanos's movie.

The Avengers are basically Hero Antagonist's.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#144530: Jul 21st 2022 at 5:03:02 PM

Also, I guess there is What If…? S1E4 "What If… Doctor Strange Lost His Heart Instead of His Hands?".

Doesn't get more villainous than complete universal destruction grin

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:03:28 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#144531: Jul 21st 2022 at 5:03:33 PM

[up][up][up] Hey, what did Kate do to you?

Oh right. Thanos the movie was great.

Edited by fasoman1996 on Jul 21st 2022 at 9:03:53 AM

Uni cat
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144532: Jul 21st 2022 at 5:10:16 PM

I do hope the protagonists would do something a little morally ambiguous.

Like the Suicide Squad films have the issue where the protagonists don't really do anything bad or largely brutal aside from killing mooks, and both films ends with them doing an act of genuine celebratory heroism.

Meanwhile I'm thinking of more Uncanny X-Force where saving the day involves doing some ugly shit and ends with the heroes exhausted and damaged even broken from the horrible experiances.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#144533: Jul 21st 2022 at 6:01:57 PM

You know what I thought would be interesting is if Baron Zemo somehow decided that Jumping Off the Slippery Slope was the best solution, and gradually becomes the fanatical madman from the comics, albeit reluctantly.

The two things I could think of are him witnessing a Celestial, thus making him decide that he needs to ascend to their level to prevent them from manipulating the world, or retconning his dad's innocence by having him discover that Heinrich was indeed involved with HYDRA, and that his work with them is how the Zemo family came to be so wealthy in the first place.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#144534: Jul 21st 2022 at 6:28:13 PM

If we use episodes of What if, as examples, then it appears to me that Infinite Ultron was the protagonist of his episode.

Wandavision and Loki both have villain protagonists, although both end up with the protagonists in the role of "heroes" when they must face someone worse than themselves.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 21st 2022 at 6:31:53 AM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#144535: Jul 21st 2022 at 6:54:26 PM

Do we have to count Venom and Morbius, given their intersection with the MCU?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144536: Jul 21st 2022 at 6:59:16 PM

[up][up][up] Oooooh that be pretty clever to bring in Heinrich Zemo, especially since a big thing about Helmut is how much he hates and is ashamed of Heinrich.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#144537: Jul 21st 2022 at 7:25:54 PM

[up]*4 Honestly, if they decide to have Zemo as the main character, they will most likely go the other way, to make him some kind of anti-hero.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 21st 2022 at 7:26:11 AM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#144538: Jul 21st 2022 at 7:51:18 PM

[up]Well, he is a fairly sympathetic character here overall and I could absolutely see him settling into an Anti-Villain role, while Walker could go either way and become more genuinely heroic, or descend into the depths of self-delusion and turn into a Nominal Hero at best.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#144539: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:00:40 PM

I assume Walker will get worse.

People hate him a lot more after all.

The Zemo dance has made the Baron too fun to hate. Not bad for someone who murdered a buttload of innocent people, including a head of state.

One Strip! One Strip!
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#144540: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:07:42 PM

Yeah, I sadly think that Walker will not get a chance to reform and just get crazier and more self-righteous until he's turned into a real piece of shit with none of his redeeming traits. The kind of guy who will still be totally convinced he's the hero even when he's doing ridiculously illegal black ops shit that would make even Bill Rawlins blush.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144541: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:11:53 PM

[up][up] In fairness plenty of people like Walker.

Just because a character has a hatedom doesn't mean they don't have fans.

Like a group of Sam Wilson fans despise Captain Carter but that doesn't mean no one likes her.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#144542: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:14:07 PM

I think people forget that Walker ended up choosing to save a group of people over catching his friend's killer.

I know he's not the most popular character, but this already sounds like Ron the Death Eater.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 21st 2022 at 8:15:56 AM

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#144543: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:26:10 PM

I think part of it is Walker's story (like all of FATWS) suffers from missing a step. His spiral downward is pretty well paced, but then he just kind of shakes off his unhinged murderous plan and becomes a good guy almost immediately. Sam and Bucky just kind of accept it, and everyone moves on very quickly.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144544: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:27:06 PM

In my experience this forum's criticism of Walker is more Doylist, in that the writers were horrible at making him not as bad as he could have been.

[nja]

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 21st 2022 at 10:27:30 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#144545: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:43:26 PM

Then again, if he dances a funny dance, maybe people will like John more.

Funny dances mean popularity. For all we know, he could be a master of Disco dancing.

I'd pay to see that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#144546: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:43:26 PM

More like he ping-pongs between "just killed a dude" and "saving a bus full of people, and also Sam and Bucky are cool with him" way too fast.

There's a really cool and interesting character concept in there and a Reformed, but Not Tamed plotline where even if he's still nominally a hero he will always be greyer (and more bloodstained) than he once was, but between the show's runtime and what I can only assume is COVID rewrites, the way it's written feels schizophrenic and inconsistent.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144547: Jul 21st 2022 at 8:48:05 PM

I think as far as the writers go they intended Walker to be a heroic, admirable man with some minor flaws. Whether he'll stay that way depends how much Marvel was affected by the fairly obvious audience perception that Walker was a terrible person who should have been a villain.

It's more or less the reverse case as Loki. With Loki, starting from The Dark World the MCU decided to accomodate that audience reaction of Loki being a misunderstood pretty boy Wild Card (rather than a maniacal mass-murderer) and that stuck since. Walker might suffer the same fate or might not.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 8:48:41 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#144548: Jul 21st 2022 at 9:44:18 PM

Loki was only a "maniacal mass murderer" in Avengers. In Thor 1 he was only a bit more extreme than most Asgardians, who think that mass slaughter of their enemies is glorious, but doing it in a sneaky way is bad. Hell, in Avengers he's as much of a "maniacal mass murderer" as Thor was at the start of Thor 1, since they both wanted to conquer a world through violence and killing, and he was completely rehabilitated.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#144549: Jul 21st 2022 at 9:45:04 PM

Loki literally tries committing genocide in the first Thor.

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#144550: Jul 21st 2022 at 9:48:34 PM

Thor literally talks about wanting to commit genocide as a child in Thor 1 and tries to act on it at the beginning. Odin literally boasts about his father committing genocide in TDW.


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