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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144476: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:24:35 PM

What if...Mephisto is actually a regular guy who gets introduced in a movie or two, who through some magical and/or Freak Lab Accident, transforms into the literal incarnation of Satan himself?

That’s so cliche, they should do something fresh like make him a disgruntled guy Tony Stark was rude to once. tongue

DoubleOG (Apprentice)
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#144478: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:26:28 PM

[up][up]To complete the package, have his motivations be bizarrely misunderstood by the fandom, even when they seem pretty clear!

Edited by fredhot16 on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:26:53 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144479: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:26:49 PM

[up][up][up] Reminds me how during the production for the original Hellboy movie execs wanted HB to be a human who henshin heroes into HB.

Which GDT and Pearlman put the kibbosh on.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:26:59 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#144480: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:27:14 PM

I would dig Mephisto being a seemingly normal guy who is *revealed* to be a demon after several movies, at least.

Like, damn, what if way back in the stinger for Avengers, it was a sad shot of Coulson’s body… and then his eyes open and he turns out to be a freaking demon from hell manipulating everyone? Can you imagine the HSQ?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:30:12 AM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#144481: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:36:25 PM

Mephisto with some Nyarlathotep-like traits could work, but he's also not about large-scale manipulation.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#144482: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:40:29 PM

At least agent Coulson has been allowed to Rest in Peace,I know agents of shield had him resurrected with kree blood

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144483: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:40:41 PM

It being Coulson is amusing cause it reminds one that the Heroes Reborn even turned Coulson into a servant of Mephisto.

Yeah he did in the comics being assassinated by Deadpool and Mephisto later resurrected him as his evil servant.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:41:14 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
"To watch it all burn."
#144484: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:49:49 PM

Fun fact, Russell Crowe was originally supposed to play Satan, not Zeus in Love and Thunder. IGN reported it here.

Also, the Heroes Reborn storyline had Mephisto use an infernally corrupted Cosmic Cube to turn the Marvel Universe into a DCU-pastiche where he was God and Coulson president, which would be funny to see on screen.

Edited by fanman on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:53:32 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144485: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:50:06 PM

Do be honest I like Coulson well enough, i mean to finish Agents Of Shield one day but I never quite understand why he was considered an ensemble darkhorse in phase 1. He didn't do much he was just there and semi-amiable.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144486: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:52:38 PM

The found-family-fanon-machine was absolutely insane post-Avengers 1, Coulson fit as a "square" sitcom character archetype. (Subsequent films didn't do much to show the Avengers as a whole as actually friends, so it's a little wild in hindsight to think of that time on the internet.)

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 21st 2022 at 3:53:13 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144487: Jul 21st 2022 at 1:59:13 PM

They really overuse the found family thing.

Guardians also does it. Sure it better showcases how they are a family but it gets kind of annoying when every super group is a “found family”.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144488: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:05:00 PM

Sometimes I preferred the fandom dynamics of the Avengers versus the canon ones because most of the time the former was far more amiable. Before Infinity War I saw the joke of “Thor and Quill discuss both having to kill their relatives” everywhere online, but the fan versions had them do it as a form of trauma-bonding while in the film the joke is more Quill trying to one-up Thor.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:05:24 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144489: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:09:42 PM

The found family thing really only gets referenced for Natasha and then only in Endgame (and her solo movie). In Ragnarok Thor famously only considers Hulk 'A friend from work' rather than a family. (though tbf he doesn't give a shit about his supposed best friends The Warriors Three either)

It was rather a flaw in Civil War and Endgame we were supposed to considered them best of friends and so tragic they're fighting when we've only really seen them in two movies squabbling.

The only time they really spent as a long term team was... the run up to Age Of Ultron which we don't see.

On their own Civil War and Age Of Ultron (more or less) are decent movies but the fact they both lean in to Steve / Tony conflict rather undermines them, that and the Sokovia Accord ending up meaning nothing is one of those things were the planning of the shared universe obviously wasn't that good.

And to go off on and even more random Tangent. What Age Of Ultron did well and Endgame didn't. Was 'and the adventure continues' ending. I was expecting the O6 avengers to break up then but they did and at least we got the very real sense it wasn't the end.

Whereas Endgame did feel like it was the absolute end which is has left phase 4 floundering with questions about if the Avengers are even a thing, who's looking over them etc which none of the films seem very keen on answering.

Sorry that post is all over the place and yet I am clicking post to inflict it on you anyway.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144490: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:14:37 PM

^^^Mm, yeah. Take the DCAU Justice League; I fully believe all they like each other way more than the Avengers like each other, and I even wouldn't call them found family. We certainly never got anything close to "they all live in Stark Tower, Cap & Thor gym buddies, Bruce & Tony spend their afternoons doing Science, Nat has sleepovers with Clint and Maria" etc. I think we are supposed to read the Guardians as one, though, since they're all weird misfits who become stuck together on a ship.

^^I read this thinkpiece once (can't find it now unfortunately) about how the fandom headcanons propelled the MCU fandom because the films certainly weren't finding the time for fleshed-out group dynamics.

^Yeah, I also find the emotional crux of Civil War kind of bland. Yes we had a whole movie beforehand proving Steve would risk it all for Bucky, but Bucky's also barely a character at that point. Same with Steve and Tony's nonexistent bromance.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 21st 2022 at 4:16:31 AM

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#144491: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:18:10 PM

"To complete the package, have his motivations be bizarrely misunderstood by the fandom, even when they seem pretty clear!"

And fans will complain that Mephisto is crazy and his plan doesn't make sense and consider it a "script hole", even though the movie makes it clear that Mephisto is a crazy guy whose plan doesn't make sense.

Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#144492: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:18:43 PM

. Speaki ng of Bruce Timm. Do tou think the MCU should be like the DCAU?

Just Makima.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144493: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:20:05 PM

It's also a matter of writer ethos. Joss Whedon's take on the Avengers in both the first film and Age of Ultron leans more to that classic idea that they're a barely-functioning ticking time-bomb of interpersonal drama (as Banner verbally notes in the first film), that their core conflict is just getting along, because if they did they'd steamroll their opponents. They're companions but they also barely tolerate each other in Whedon's take.

The Russos made more of an effort to have them be cohesive (despite helming civil war, the point where they fall apart), but the original foundational stone remained.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144494: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:21:11 PM

So many problems can blamed on Whedon

That fucking piece of shit

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#144495: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:25:09 PM

It was rather a flaw in Civil War and Endgame we were supposed to considered them best of friends and so tragic they're fighting when we've only really seen them in two movies squabbling.

Blame Whedon and his “the Avengers are literally invincible, so the actual conflict is that they can never ever get along” take on the franchise.

It hit Tony and Steve the hardest. I cannot buy that the MCU versions are friends, which hurt Civil War for me. Colleagues with a deep respect, yeah (which caused the story to still work), but not friends.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#144496: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:29:32 PM

I mean...at least they cared when somebody in their ranks died. Unlike a certain other team in another universe...

But I get the criticisms from a Doylist perspective.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#144497: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:34:34 PM

A lot of Civil War had to carry the baggage of AOU and it was pretty evident from the day that movie came out.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144498: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:37:45 PM

Part of the interpersonal conflict in The Avengers is being driven by the Mind Stone, whereas in Avengers: Age of Ultron it's Tony's hubris mixed with his fear of what would happen if supervillains just keep coming and the Avengers weren't able to defend the world. This in turn leads into the conflict of Civil War, during which Tony's fears about the threat change from supervillains to superheroes.

It's not completely incoherent but you can feel the different directing styles rub against each other. Phase 3 and its epilogues play on this by having Tony be portrayed as both the unifying force of the Avengers and the cause of most of their problems.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 5:38:54 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#144499: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:45:12 PM

It's really weird that this thread is going 'Whedon set it up this way, later other writers took it a different way, which didn't work with prior characterization, what an idiot/bad writer Whedon was...'

No one was forcing Civil War or later films to try to go 'no, we were the closest of friends.'

Edited by ECD on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:45:54 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#144500: Jul 21st 2022 at 2:47:57 PM

Sometimes I preferred the fandom dynamics of the Avengers versus the canon ones because most of the time the former was far more amiable. Before Infinity War I saw the joke of “Thor and Quill discuss both having to kill their relatives” everywhere online, but the fan versions had them do it as a form of trauma-bonding while in the film the joke is more Quill trying to one-up Thor.

Fandoms generally love delving into positive bonds and dynamics, so that's unsurprising. Feel-good stuff is nice.


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