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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#144426: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:34:40 AM

I've secretly been hoping for Diablo as a starter villain for the fantasic four

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144427: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:41:21 AM

Blade technically already had a few cast-members announced. Aside from Ali, Delroy Lindo, Aaron Pierre and Milan Ray were announced, so I'd imagine what they'll get are official announcements possibly including what characters they'll be playing. The film also already has a director and screenwriter and is set to start shooting in October, so that one would be pretty much on-lock for character announcements.

For the Fantastic Four, the MCU approach would probably be steering clear of the big guns like Doctor Doom and Galactus in a first movie and teasing the former in a post-credits scene. I'd imagine they'll go with a "back to basics" approach and try to mine the early Lee-Kirby. Mole-Man was the first villain the F4 faced (in their first issue), in a Journey to the Center of the Earth sort of story, so that pitch wouldn't be a bad guess.

Personally I was always partial to a Lost in Space take where the F4 are lost in the outer realms of space facing weird alien threats in their origin. I favoured the Red Ghost as a villain for this purpose, but given the current war, this (Red Ghost AND HIS SUPER-APES! being the soviet counterpart to the F4) seems like a subject the MCU would avoid.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 10:44:05 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144428: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:46:34 AM

Well, the MCU has shown that it is not afraid to tackle cops shooting at kids in front of a school, so maybe it'll hit some other heavy subjects. The problem with that idea, though, is that the Cold War is long over, so why would Russia be competing with the U.S. on a national level in this particular way?

Sure, Dreykov was a thing, but he was shown to be a Cold War hold-over acting extra-nationally. Until now, the MCU hasn't dealt with the concept of state-sponsored supers that compete with each other except for Black Widow. It just feels tonally off unless they write Russia's new aggression into canon.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:57:43 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144429: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:51:12 AM

My idea came joined at the hip with the oremise that the film would be an actual period piece set during the 60's Space Race (and subsequently the F4 would be time-displaced from that period), so the Red Ghost's (and his SUPER-APES!) presence came as a collorary to that. More of a deliberate Cold War throwback, as I just think the F4 particularly suits that time period (and I am fond of period piece superhero films).

If they're going to be straightforward present, no real need to use the Red Ghost (or his super-apes, particularly given his whole pitch made more sense in the space race when we'd still regularly send apes to space).

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 10:52:17 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144430: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:54:01 AM

Oh. That would be cool, actually. The last throwback we got was Captain Marvel and I very much enjoyed it. Being time-displaced (forward, in this case) would let the F4 come into the MCU fresh, without any of the Phase 3 baggage that everyone else is suffering from, and do some Fish out of Temporal Water stories.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:55:11 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#144431: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:57:50 AM

Diablo or Annihilus get my vote, though I'd like to see Annihilus get a cosmic horror makeover and so I would probably pick him for a different movie. Honestly, I wouldn't mind that approach for Diablo either, I kind of envision the basic premise of his awakening being similar to Nix in Lord of Illusions.

Doom should be a presence but should not be a central villain for a while. He needs to be a central fixture of the MCU, not just a one-and-done.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Jul 21st 2022 at 10:59:10 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144432: Jul 21st 2022 at 10:58:32 AM

Y'all gonna have to explain some of this shit to us non-comic-readers. evil grin It feels like there's a discontinuity here between all the comic fans who are pining for their favorite stories/characters and everyone else who is into the MCU as itself, without any baggage.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 1:59:21 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#144434: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:04:33 AM

I'm not a marvel comics reader (most of the ones I've read are DC) but Diablo is basically an 'evil chemist' who had his lifespan extended thanks to a deal he did with Mephisto,dude loves using his potions

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144435: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:07:16 AM

Okay, so would this be a sneaky way to get Mephisto into the MCU? The amount of hype for that guy is kind of nuts.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:07:28 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#144436: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:10:38 AM

Sort of,well yes actually

Drat,you've seen through my schemes!

-deploys smokebombs,flees-

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#144437: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:13:54 AM

And Annihilus is the alien ruler of the Negative Zone, an alternative universe where all matter is negativly charged. He commands an army of space bugs and is out to kill everyone entering his realm due to his absurd paranoia wich makes him see everybody else as an threat for his life.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144438: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:15:15 AM

Unfortunately, if Annihilus is going to show up it may well be in or related to The Marvels, since based on the after-credits scene for Ms. Marvel, there is a very good chance that Kamala Khan's bangle is one of the Nega-Bands, which might bring the Negative Zone into play.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:15:40 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144439: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:21:46 AM

I have major doubts that Spielberg would direct because he and Disney do not get along. They almost patched things up with The BFG, but then fell out again.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144440: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:23:27 AM

For a breakdown on the other comics characters mentioned:

  • Mole Man: Gonkish guy who rules a underground kingdom of mole people in the depths of the hollow earth. Hates surface dwellers (i.e. us) and is often warring with them for real or perceived slights.
  • Red Ghost (and his super-apes): Soviet cosmonauts who went to explore the same phenomenon as the F4 and got affected by the same rays, getting similar powers. It's the Soviet F4 except 3/4ths of the team are apes with supeprpowers.

Mole-Man is one of F4's most classic foes, but Red Ghost is a guy no one cares about, but I enjoy the inherent gonzo silver-age apppeal of his premise and think he makes fine for a Starter Villain with some interesting potential. I imagined him as a villain by circumstance only, just a cosmonaut who got stranded into space and is trying to make his way home, prioritizing his team's survival over the americans just the same as they priotitze theirs over the soviets (or they imagine to, that sort of prisoner's dilema scenario of "we have to screw over them before they screw over us". Probably wrap him up doing a Heroic Sacrifice alongside his apes against some cosmic disaster or threat so the F4 can finally make their way home (my imagination was the Red Ghost charging against the Negative Space Wedgie with a "Да здравствует Советский Союз!" shout but that ain't happening).

Re: Mephisto. He is hyped up because he's functionally Marvel's Satan stand-in and has his fingers on a lot of pies.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 11:25:06 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144441: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:27:04 AM

Isn't Mole Man parodied by The Underminer in The Incredibles, which is itself a Fantastic Four spoof? If so, I don't see film audiences taking him seriously.

The reason I am skeptical about Mephisto is that it seems like he needs to be the Greater-Scope Villain of an entire phase, not a one-off, and it seems like Feige has a bunch of other stories he's trying to tell right now. Also, I always get weirded out when "the literal Devil" shows up. Not only does it create theological questions but it shouldn't be something that can be defeated by a bunch of weirdos in capes.

Regarding Red Ghost, apes with superpowers as part of a villain team could have some horrifying Unfortunate Implications. I'm shaking my head at the very thought.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:28:22 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#144442: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:28:47 AM

Rushing Dr. Doom was a big problem in the last few FF movies, so I’m down with easing him out bit by bit.

The introductory MCU FF needs to not be another “heroes have origin and fight their greatest enemy who’s also is also getting big se” movie. That’s not a smart way of approaching the FF (or, really, an ensemble group in general) and each of the previous films trying to square peg the group into the round hole of whatever kind of superhero film was popular at the time really hurt them each time.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144443: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:39:39 AM

I doubt Mephisto would be introduced in the F4, for the record. I think Mephisto is only sure to show up anywhere if they plan to introduce Ghost Rider, the character he's more directly tied with. It's pretty much impossible to do GR without Mephisto joined at the hip.

Re Mole-Man: Underminer from the Incredibles is indeed a direct riff on Mole-Man, but I don't know what's the problem there. As its often observed the MCU got people to roll with a talking tree and a raccoon (and a sentient pile of rocks). The F4 is a group very much composed of absurd high concepts, there's no real way around it (or rather, there is, but it makes the story much poorer). Even their most emblematic foes, Galactus and Doctor Doom, are incredibly operatic and over-the-top faux-shakespearean lunatics dressed in garish outfits. You have to roll with it or you might as well not adapt the F4.

Like, if you draw the line at Mole-Man then that's half the F4 character history going through a window. I didn't even bring up The Impossible Man, the green-skinned cosmic prankster who likes fucking with everybody with his semi-divine shapeshifting powers (and yes he's pretty much marvel's Mr. Mxy, sometimes literally).

Regarding Red Ghost, apes with superpowers as part of a villain team could have some horrifying Unfortunate Implications. I'm shaking my head at the very thought.

That one you're going to have to explain to me.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 11:44:16 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144444: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:46:45 AM

It's more a matter of audiences taking the character seriously. How many people, seeing the F4 fighting a big mole dude, would not flash back to the animated movie and laugh? I know I would. Given that it's the MCU, they could always lean into it, but they certainly can't play it completely straight-faced.

In fact, I would expect and hope that F4 would shout-out to The Incredibles.

As for Red Ghost, apes are a very common racist caricature used to represent black people.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144445: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:51:38 AM

I think less The Incredibles and more The Simpsons when hearing the name 'Moleman'

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#144446: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:51:54 AM

But they're Russian, and literal apes. I can see not wanting to touch Russia, but not because anyone rational would mistake it for a caricature of black people (especially since the Putin administration is so nationalistic).

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:53:24 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#144447: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:53:29 AM

Yeahhhh, no one else seems to be equating just the presence of apes as racism. tongue

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144448: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:55:22 AM

I'm just saying, if you want right-wing types to latch onto your movie as symbolic of their belief system, have the villains be literal apes. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but wouldn't it be just as easy to dodge the problem by making them humans?

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 21st 2022 at 2:56:04 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#144449: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:55:51 AM

If the whole plot is the FF exploring a whole amazing subterranean world and coming into conflict with their kind, who happens to be a mad scientist from the surface, I’m sure people won’t care much as long as the adventure is good.

The Incredibles was ages ago, anyway.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 21st 2022 at 11:56:05 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#144450: Jul 21st 2022 at 11:59:11 AM

And more evidently they're a direct riff on the tradition of space apes. You could make them dogs I guess but the heroes beating up dogs seems worse for audience optics.

The problem with Red Ghost is much more obviously A) the looming shadow of Putin's Russia b) the danger of just turning it into naked xenophobia against eastern europeans/Red Scare propaganda (as every soviet supervillain in comics risks falling into). That combined with the fact that Red Ghost is a d-lister in the F4's rogues gallery makes it pretty remote that they'll use him, anyway. The only thing he has going for him immediately is that his powers derive from the same source as the heroes, a expendient time-saving tactic that the MCU adores using.

It was just an idea I liked, but it's relatively unlikely.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 21st 2022 at 12:00:04 PM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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