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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144026: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:05:35 PM

My Fancast for Doom is to have Simon Templeman play him again

He doesn't seem like someone they'd go with though.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144027: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:19:11 PM

Surtur was a conquered demon trying to strike back against conquering gods. If what Thor did to him was fine and dandy, then anyone barging into Asgard to assassinate Odin while he still controlled his conquered realms would've been even more justified. But instead, merely deposing him and allowing his conquered realms to do as they wished was a terrible crime.

... say what now?

For all Ragnarok retconning in Odin is a terrible imperialist conqueror we never actually see him doing anything oppressive or controlling or imposing upon the nine realms at all or even ruling at all.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 12th 2022 at 1:29:24 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144028: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:23:36 PM

We do see that some of the other nine realms immediately fall into chaos slash revolutions once Asgard loses the ability to project force

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144029: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:27:23 PM

Hilariously L&T also casts Odin in a better light as he actually cares about the wider realm and doesn't hold himself up in Omnipotence City unlike most Gods.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#144030: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:30:08 PM

And the lack of proyecting force become a point when thanos wipe out the dwarfts.

Odin sketchy behavor was kinda there from the start, from the way he behave and hiding loki parentage to him, to his growl and rage at dark elves and so on, but his imperalist past is kinda sorta a retcon specially with two movies make him a flawed but benevolent father figure.....

In fact, ragnarok still make him so after all, given he appear to Thor in vision in this weird obi wan esque moment to tell Thor to find the strength in himself. Is kinda why I dont like the movie that much because it can be unfocus as hell(a complain I start to see more and more with the director it seens).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144031: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:36:13 PM

Odin being so long lived muddled the idea a little but I think his Thor 1 self, with the hindsight of the Ragnarok ragnetcon, is supposed to be a golden age type of imperialism

A Rome that had finished expansion and focused on the peace and prosperity of the provinces

It took a lot of conquering and death and betrayal to get to this point but now everyone’s just chilling. Making money. Don’t mind the fire demons, they’re just sour. Or the frost giants. They’re also just sore.

Stole some of their cultural treasures after the war. They need to get over it.

But yeah: the Frost Giants, despite being villains in the source material and dicks in the MCU too, kind of are a hint even in Thor 1 how Asgard operates

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 12th 2022 at 8:37:08 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144032: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:40:40 PM

How it operates? As far as one could tell Odin's policy towards the frost giants in Thor 1 was completely hands off passivity. They haven't conquered the froat giants they just leave them the heck alone.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#144033: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:43:04 PM

So Asgard is basically the Kree if they decided to actually stop Imperialism in favor of actually making their society prosper?

Hmm. I could get behind that. Kinda makes me want to see a webseries about Kree politics now ala Star Wars: The Clone Wars, with dissenters pointing to Asgard to demonstrate what could happen to them if they don't think long-term.

Maybe an animated Asgard prequel as well, just to see what Odin was like at the height of his power before deciding to banish Hela.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jul 12th 2022 at 5:43:50 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144034: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:43:25 PM

[up][up] Stole their cultural treasure and is low key planning to put an Asgard friendly Loki on the throne eventually.

But yeah, Asgard doesn’t seem to field any troops in any of the nine realms. I guess with the Bifrost and a man who can see almost everything you don’t need to

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 12th 2022 at 8:45:52 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#144035: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:45:47 PM

Oooh you are right. I'm rustier on these movies than I realised.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144036: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:46:17 PM

The fact that every enemy nation of Asgard is a bunch of marauding monsters really muddles it.

Like say you have this nation minding its own business until its attacked by an enemy empire intent on conquering everything. But the defender nation beats back the attacking nation and even winds up taking everything they have in the process.

Who's the victim there?

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 12th 2022 at 5:53:46 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#144037: Jul 12th 2022 at 5:51:40 PM

The Dark Elves really muddle it by being an existential threat to all life, the universe, and everything

Didn’t get that impression from the frost giants though.

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 12th 2022 at 8:52:12 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#144038: Jul 12th 2022 at 6:02:50 PM

"The enemy was going to wipe us out and then everyone else!" is Imperialism Propaganda 101. That the movie that says it has an anti-imperialism message plays it 100% straight, just so the hero can have an easy guilt-free kill to demonstrate his hero cred, is thoughtless at best.

The first movie implied/possibly outright stated that without the Casket of Ancient Winters, Jotunheim was withering. So Odin didn't just take their cultural treasure and plot to put their stolen prince on the throne after he'd been raised Asgardian, he was also withholding a necessary resource and condemning them to die as their world became unlivable or become refugees.

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#144039: Jul 12th 2022 at 6:07:05 PM

To be honest, the frost giants and dark elves were only there to fulfill the role of space orcs, and I don't mean the ones in Warcraft.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#144040: Jul 12th 2022 at 6:14:33 PM

[up][up]We're directly told (and see) the Jotuns in the process of conquering/freezing Earth and we're directly told (and see) the Dark Elves planning to plunge the universe into darkness. Now, maybe they're being driven to these actions as part of an effort to oppose Asgard's wars of conquest, but that's a pretty wild guess as we have absolutely no idea of the timing of events (except they have to be post-initial conquest, as otherwise, the battles would simply have been Hela massacring every enemy).

Frankly, a reasonable read is that as soon as Asgard lost it's massive power advantage with the imprisonment of Hela and the death of the Valkyries, the component parts of its empire begin to rebuild/prepare for rebellions/revolutions we see later.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144041: Jul 12th 2022 at 6:27:21 PM

[up][up][up][up] Knowing the Frost Giants they would corral the populations into feeding camps.

Like how if vampires take over the world they would enslave and keep humanity in prison/feeding camps to always have a constant supply of food.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#144042: Jul 12th 2022 at 6:27:54 PM

Now, maybe they're being driven to these actions as part of an effort to oppose Asgard's wars of conquest, but that's a pretty wild guess as we have absolutely no idea of the timing of events

And maybe the movie that revealed Asgard was built on unjustified conquest should have established that, instead of introducing another faction with a grudge against Asgard that completely deserves to be dealt with violently by the heir invading their realm and killing their king. For all that everyone says that Ragnarok puts the previous movies in a new light, it steadfastly refuses to actually re-evaluate Asgard's actions in those movies. We're just told that Asgard did bad things, but don't worry, the wars we saw were actually justified.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#144043: Jul 12th 2022 at 7:30:10 PM

Remember that Surter is also the guy that's been prophesied to be the one individual that will destroy Asgard. Deserved or not, his crown will touch that fire and Asgard will fall at some point. So that muddies things a little, too, methinks.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Jul 12th 2022 at 10:30:20 AM

Kiobi20 Since: Sep, 2016
#144044: Jul 12th 2022 at 7:40:09 PM

I really hope they have Doom as the emperor king of his own country of Latveria like he's supposed to be, instead of a norman Osborn style business man or a carrie covered in metal like the past fantastic four movies, and I also hope he's not just used for one movie and that's it, he honestly deserves to be the next Loki getting multiple appearances and being a major player through the shared universe, I can easily see him getting his own tv show as Loki got too, I imagine have him appear in the first fantastic four movies like Thanos did in Avengers 1 and guardians of the galaxy 1 as the bigger bad behind the smaller villain, he deserves to get build-up big time and do some major damage when he's the main threat, and maybe later have him team up with the heroes in an enemy mine situation to take on Kang the conqueror.

As for the villain of the first fantastic four movies, I think Moleman could work fine since he's the first supervillain the fantastic four fought in their first appearance.

Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#144046: Jul 12th 2022 at 8:00:54 PM

I certainly hope that when Doom appears whoever is writing him remembers that authoritarianism is bad and don't make Latveria an utopia or the Latverian people genuinely worshipping him.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#144047: Jul 12th 2022 at 8:06:03 PM

[up]I envisioned it being more like Singapore - an extremely prosperous and well-run country, but with ridiculously draconian and suffocating rules. Doom doing a good job at running it would also hammer home how ridiculous his grudge towards Reed is, as he runs an entire goddamn country and runs it well and should be very over being that angry at one man.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#144048: Jul 12th 2022 at 8:06:17 PM

I'm reminded of when Age of Ultron's depiction of Sokovia got a lot of flack from Eastern Europeans because it seemed like a generic Ruritania country filled with bad stereotypes. Would Marvel be falling into that same pitfall if they depict Latveria as an authoritarian country?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
#144049: Jul 12th 2022 at 8:14:03 PM

Its a bit tricky with Doom. Since he's been portrayed as being both loved or hated by his people in the comics Depending on the Writer.

Personally adaptating it so his people have formed a cult of personality dedicated to him because, from their perspective, he is doing right by them and its the rest of the world thats the problem, would be the way to go.

His still portrayed as an authoritarian but its complicated by the genuine loyalty he inspires due to his charisma and the innovations he's introduced to his country, after it previously mismanaged by oligarchs, so something. The heroes being unable to convince his people to reject/overthrow him without creating a international incident that tends to comes with nations policing other nations would be a interestig layer of drama too.

Edited by Avenger09 on Jul 12th 2022 at 4:17:19 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#144050: Jul 12th 2022 at 8:24:06 PM

Reminds me of when Superman defeated Darkseid in the animated series and he threw his bodies to the people expecting a revolt. He is shocked when they instead are still loyal to him, helping, and carrying him without command.

And as the injured Darkseid is lead away he merely says this, "I am many things Kal-El, but here I am God."

Man Michael Ironside has a Hell of a voice.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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