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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#143801: Jul 10th 2022 at 8:55:04 AM

[up][up]She does (same with Creed and Daken), but it's balanced by amputation and bone destruction being a very real risk.

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143802: Jul 10th 2022 at 10:49:55 AM

Speaking of Laura, I hope they hire the actress from the movie Logan, if she ever comes back.

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#143803: Jul 10th 2022 at 11:11:27 AM

I'd love to see Dafne Keen reprise the role as the same Laura via Secret Wars, or maybe as a refugee from her timeline.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143804: Jul 10th 2022 at 11:56:23 AM

Man pro-Killmonger people are pretty weird.

Here's one tweet for example

Like wasn't Killmonger also CIA?

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2022 at 11:57:02 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#143805: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:01:18 PM

Feels like a lot of Killmonger apologists only see him for his supposed surface-level desire to change the world but miss the heavy subtext of his still playing by the rules of many a far-right handbook.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143806: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:05:18 PM

Yeah, the thing with his character is that he's oppressed and oppressor. His take-over of Wakanda is, as verbally described in the movie's dialogue, literally straight out of the CIA playbook.

Mind you, I do think it sits a little weird in the movie's subtext that T'challa's stalwart foreigner ally is a CIA agent and this doesn't get explicitly addressed (even as I noted just now that Ross is very much osberving that the CIA has wreaked bloody havoc across the african continent with impunity). I figured this would be sequel fodder but now I'm not so sure.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:07:07 PM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143807: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:06:39 PM

Dude also has a lot of women sticking up for him, apparently forgetting or ignoring that Killmonger also has no problem sacrificing and leaving his girlfriend for dead.

[up] It is somewhat weird since Ross wasn't a CIA agent originally.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#143808: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:07:45 PM

Think I saw a You Tuber (can't remember who?) Who compared him more to the kinds of African Dictators like Idi Amin. Who often try and charm their people by offering them such hopes and dreams only to stab them in the back for power when they take over.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#143809: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:08:18 PM

[up][up][up]I mean, it's not at all uncommon for some outside powers to support one faction within a nation and another to support a different one? It's basically a Cold War plot, where the morality of the factions is at best tangentially related to whether they get KGB or CIA support.

Edited by ECD on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:08:41 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143810: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:14:24 PM

That's not the point. The point is the film making a very specific critique of the tyranny of america's establishment and military-industrial complex but Ross, an actual card-carrying agent of said establishment, sort of just ducks under the whole shindig. The film is aware of this (hence Shuri calling Ross "colonizer" a couple of times) but it just goes by largely unremarked that T'challa picks an agent of imperialist tyranny as his good ally. It's thematically strange, particularly given Ross is a squeaky-clean, morally upright Nice Guy despite, once again, being a CIA agent who's clearly aware of the kind of thing CIA does. He's not some shady reluctant ally or anything.

Edited by Gaon on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:15:40 PM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143811: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:19:37 PM

I checked, Ross originally is a low-level federal agent whose job is primarily escorting foreign diplomats on American soil. So like he manages their schedules and orders the hotel rooms for their stay.

A weird change to turn him into a CIA agent since his general harmlessness is one of the reasons why T'Challa is incredibly trusting to him to the point he made him acting king so he can prioritize on other stuff.

Oh fuck imagine if T'Challa made a CIA agent acting regent of Wakanda? tongue

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:24:33 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#143812: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:23:36 PM

I wonder how much of that was inherited from Civil War making the choice beforehand, and if Coogler would've made the same choice/been coerced into it by Disney if Ross wasn't already established in a previous film.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#143813: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:25:12 PM

It does seem like an odd choice.

Maybe they figured T'challa might need someone in the CIA himself to provide some exposition?

Plus, Ross earned himself some points for saving Nakia at the near cost of his own life, showing he was a good person despite his CIA status, and he does essentially volunteer to help in the final battle.

I always got the feeling his help came not only because they saved his life, and trusted him with a lot of Wakanda's secrets, but also because he was well aware of the role his government played in Killmonger's ability to get inside Wakanda (he had the insider knowledge, but they gave him the training).

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143814: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:26:03 PM

Maybe they wanted Ross to be someone who had insight on Killmonger, and didn't think too hard on what that insight said about Ross himself.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143815: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:27:42 PM

Does anybody remember what title or rank Ross is introduced as in Civil War?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143816: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:31:04 PM

Isn't Ross being a CIA agent also from the comics? For some reason, I recall him having a different job there.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#143817: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:31:50 PM

Apparently his title there was as a Deputy Task Force Commander, but I distinctly remember him being introduced as an associate of Sharon Carter, who was explicitly a CIA agent.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143818: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:32:09 PM

As slimcoder said, he was a diplomat guy

[up] okay so I guess civil war grandfathered it in

Edited by Bocaj on Jul 10th 2022 at 3:33:04 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143819: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:35:13 PM

Like I said he's a low level federal agent whose job is to basically be a glorified tour guide for foreign dignitaries. [nja]

There general relationship between BP and Ross is that BP does something insane, causing an international incident which leads to Ross getting yelled at by his superiors "Ross what the Hell is that client of yours doing? You get him to calm down or I'm sending your ass to Siberia!"

Hilariously at one point Ross while on roller-skates was chased by the President who wanted to bludgeon him to death with a hockey stick in the White House because T'Challa accused the US government of colluding with Wakandan radicals which was technically a declaration of war.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:36:18 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143820: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:38:17 PM

As I said I thought some of it might be saving it for the sequel (particularly given Reverend Achebe, the other prominent BP villain in the comics, is often tied to the CIA) but after the unholy Hell that must have been to write the sequel I'm not too sure it will get addressed.

It might also be a case of the film being Backed by the Pentagon, although I don't actually know if Black Panther specifically was. I know this is very explicitly the case in Captain Marvel, wherein the film runs a strangely contradictory conundrum by using the fictional alien empire of the Kree to obviously criticize US foreign policy (it gets basically spelled out when the Kree start dubbing Skrull refugees "terrorists"), but the actual US Armed forces (Air Force more specifically) get treated as unambiguously heroic organizations. The result is a movie that is criticizing the US foreign policy in a figurative level but backing its tools of oppression in a literal level.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143821: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:41:32 PM

Hilariously at one point Ross while on roller-skates was chased by the President who wanted to bludgeon him to death with a hockey stick in the White House because T'Challa accused the US government of colluding with Wakandan radicals which was technically a declaration of war.

Every time I read something about Christopher Priest's Black Panther run it feels like the guy was exercising his ability to insert completely random and unbelievable things into it just to see if he could get away with it.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143822: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:49:29 PM

Still pales in comparison to Hudlin's run and how he basically had the entire MU bend over backwards to make T'Challa look great.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 10th 2022 at 9:49:51 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143823: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:54:30 PM

Priest's run had a lot of wacky bits which becomes very noticeable with how deathly excessively serious Black Panther comics currently are.

At one point while infiltrating the Jabari lands with Henry Peter Gyrich (he replaces Ross as T'Challa's liaison at this point in the story) to rescue Queen Divine Justice, T'Challa was forced into another challenge against M'Baku.

When asked to name his champion BP names "I choose Henry Peter Gyrich as my champion" while Gyrich is on the phone going "Wait what?" as M'Baku charges at him. All while T'Challa sneaks away going "Good they are distracted, time to find the girl." [lol]

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 10th 2022 at 12:54:53 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#143824: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:56:21 PM

also don't forget when Baku was literally a guy in a gorilla costume

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143825: Jul 10th 2022 at 12:57:44 PM

Always fun to remember Christopher Priest wrote none other than Deadpool right on the heels of Joe Kelly's character-defining run.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

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