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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#143601: Jul 7th 2022 at 11:27:09 AM

She-Hulk would probably be the logical place for her to pop up in the near future, though they've definitely kept it under wraps if that is going to be the case.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143602: Jul 7th 2022 at 1:54:35 PM

Fisk has been that strong in old stories when he was still a Spider-Man rogue in the comics.

Ever since he primarily became a Daredevil Rogue, he got toned down.

It should also be noted that Spider-Man was a lot younger back then.

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DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143603: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:04:24 PM

And there's also the argument that Peter was holding back with him.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143604: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:14:38 PM

"Character was holding back" is always Depending on the Writer. It's one writer's attempt to retroactively establish Worf Had the Flu, which often doesn't actually hold up when you read the works they're trying to establish it for.

Like, Back in Black had Peter firmly state that he always held back in his fights with Fisk, and then prove it by trouncing Fisk effortlessly.

But if you go back and read the fights he's referring to, you'll find thought bubbles saying stuff like, "Wow, he's too strong! There's no way for me to overpower him!" He was absolutely not ever holding back against Fisk, until he changed writers and then retroactively he always was.

So if we want to follow that logic for the MCU, then I guess you could establish that Fisk was holding back in all of his past fights with Matt. He has never actually tried against Matt, the way he was trying in the Hawkeye show. Which makes exactly as much sense as "Character was holding back" retcons always do.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 7th 2022 at 2:18:49 AM

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143605: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:19:29 PM

Given how he was actively trying to kill Matt because he hated his guts, no, that doesn't work at all.

And in contrast to Peter, Fisk was fully grown too xP

I'll just chalk it up to inconsistency and ignore it.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 7th 2022 at 11:19:58 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143606: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:23:48 PM

Given how he was actively trying to kill Matt because he hated his guts, no, that doesn't work at all.

Exactly as much sense as it always makes.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143607: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:25:47 PM

Unrelated, I just now realized how amusing it is that Fury here is just a regular guy when his whole thing is that he's this immortal spy master whose been active for as long as WWII or even longer.

I wonder if he's served with Punisher on any tours.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143608: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:31:28 PM

[up][up] Well like I said, Depending on the Writer doesn't exactly fit for Comics Fisk.

He has been on a more grounded level for a pretty long, consistent time now. It's more a case of Early-Installment Weirdness, or Characterization Marches On.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#143609: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:31:59 PM

Like, Back in Black had Peter firmly state that he always held back in his fights with Fisk, and then prove it by trouncing Fisk effortlessly.

But if you go back and read the fights he's referring to, you'll find thought bubbles saying stuff like, "Wow, he's too strong! There's no way for me to overpower him!" He was absolutely not ever holding back against Fisk, until he changed writers and then retroactively he always was.

My favorite example of that is in the Silver Age, Kingpin's vault is just a gigantic metal door that only he is strong enough to open. Kingpin can open it without too much trouble, but when Spider-Man has to open the door, he has to stand on the wall and pull with his entire body to get it barely open enough for him to squeeze through. What, was Spidey holding back against Kingpin's DOOR, too?

Also, I just watched Dr. Strange 2, and I loved it. The magic and battles were exactly what the first film was missing and an expansion on what Infinity War gave us.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#143610: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:39:28 PM

I eagerly await Spidey deciding to stop holding back and start breaking entire walls down by trying to open the door.

Let him become the Dragon Ball character he's clearly meant to be, with all this sandbagging.

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dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143611: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:45:54 PM

I mean even if it's a retcon, Spidey holding back makes a more sense than he and is superstrength just aren't as good as a well trained normal human.

Not just against Fisk but everyone he fights without superpowers. Of course holding back doesn't have to mean consciously, he's got a strong subconscious desire not to kill anyone and thus holds back except when really angry/motivated.

Yeah that doesn't make a lot of sense in inanimate objects though, I agree.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143612: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:47:59 PM

Spider-Man became massively stronger throughout the years, which can be easily explained by him growing up from Teenager to Adult.

You won't see 1960's Spidey support an entire collapsing building anywhere.

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DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143613: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:49:55 PM

Superman and Spider-man are the masters of "I was holding back," when a writer tries to justify their constant defeats.

Honestly, if we take into account his fights, Peter is only slightly stronger than a Peak Human, even though the Databooks say he is much stronger

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 7th 2022 at 2:52:29 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143614: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:54:14 PM

Kingpin being physically stronger in Hawkeye is the least worrisome thing in his Hawkeye appearance. He's always been abnormally strong even in the Netflix series, beheading Anatoly with a car door and cracking walls/furniture during Season 3's finale.

Hell, even him being the boss of the tracksuit idiots isn't a problem, I can buy him having to start over in the criminal underworld after losing everything. It's the shallowness of his role that bothers me. He's just kinda there to be a King Mook who shows up in-person during the final battle, with none of the depth or cunning of his Netflix self.

Some blame might lie on the shorter runtime and him being a twist villain in the first place who only has one episode to shine, but also the tone is just not the same, I guess.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 7th 2022 at 5:56:19 AM

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FGHIK Since: Aug, 2013
#143615: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:55:49 PM

Continuity Snarl aside, Spider-Man holding back makes a lot more sense than Kingpin doing so. He's plenty strong enough to easily kill a normal human if he isn't careful, and has a strong moral conviction not to do so. Kingpin has no problem killing people, so the only thing it could really be is Just Toying with Them, which doesn't work when he has every reason to take things more seriously.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143616: Jul 7th 2022 at 2:57:59 PM

Yeah, Kingpin, despite appearing physically stronger, was just a complete letdown in that series. From his ridiculous outfit (No, I will never let that go tongue) to him being a complete non-entity, culminating in him appearing as nothing more than a dumb brute, instead of the cunning, ice-cold mastermind he used to be.

Guess you could say prison made him stronger, but dumber?

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dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143617: Jul 7th 2022 at 3:00:17 PM

I was interested to learn that that outfit was Vincent D'Onofrio's idea and straight of a comic. The same one that Echo shooting him is from I think.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143618: Jul 7th 2022 at 3:01:43 PM

I eagerly await Spidey deciding to stop holding back and start breaking entire walls down by trying to open the door.

Let him become the Dragon Ball character he's clearly meant to be, with all this sandbagging.

[up] Well, he's already got Yamcha's terrible luck.tongue

Edited by windleopard on Jul 7th 2022 at 11:02:23 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#143619: Jul 7th 2022 at 3:24:14 PM

in before Spiderman becomes the Krillin of the group!

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143620: Jul 7th 2022 at 4:11:15 PM

I love Fisk’s summertime gangster outfit

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#143621: Jul 7th 2022 at 4:59:53 PM

Kingpin's became less of a physical threat, because he doesn't have to be. He's a daredevil villain. But in the silver age, he got into fights often. The Spidey stuff was mentioned, but he also overpowered Captain America and Red Skull on separate occasions.

How strong he'll be here is entirely up to if Kingpin will be a wider universe threat or not. Because if he just has to deal with Hawkeye and Echo, he doesn't need to be that strong.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#143622: Jul 7th 2022 at 5:33:52 PM

I can buy him giving both Steve and the Red Skull a good fight (and in fact, I've seen samples of the issues you're referencing where those fights happen).

In the comics, the Super-Soldier serum is peak human, so Cap and the Skull don't have explicit Super-Strength, they just maxed out in all stats, which means a big dude like Fisk can still give them pause.

Hell, in terms of strength, a Peak Human Super-Soldier would likely be about as strong as someone like Fisk without being as big as him.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143623: Jul 7th 2022 at 5:49:53 PM

Comic Hawkeye outsmarting the Grandmaster with a carny trick

Man its a shame we'll never get this Hawkeye here. Huge mistake to base Clint off his Ultimate version.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#143624: Jul 7th 2022 at 6:23:41 PM

Maybe we can still have that.

Clint still exists. The Grandmaster is a thing. Just get them in the same room.

Maybe reveal Clint had a brother in the Circus who taught him the trick (recall he does have a brother named Barney in the 616 canon...or did. I'm not sure if he's dead or not).

There's still a chance if they can hold on to Jeremy Renner long enough. Sure, Hailee Steinfeld is set to take his place, but there's still some time before he drops out I'd assume.

Plus, who doesn't want to see the dude who just shoots arrows really well outsmart the Grandmaster?

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143625: Jul 7th 2022 at 7:23:36 PM

There's also that time Hawkeye beat Krona, nigh-omniscient threat to two entire universes, with a TNT arrow.

I really, really want an adaptation of JLA / Avengers.


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