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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143551: Jul 6th 2022 at 2:46:14 PM

But, as Morbius has proven, trying to understand and satiate internet demands almost never works. Especially if you don't know whether they're serious or not.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143552: Jul 6th 2022 at 2:57:15 PM

What are you talking about? It made a Morbillion dollars at the box office and Sony should definitely totally show it a third time in theaters so they lose make even more money, trust me.

I feel genuinely sorry for anybody whose favorite comic book character actually was Morbius, and now all he's known for in the public zeitgeist is a shitty movie with extremely ironic memes.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 6th 2022 at 5:58:53 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#143553: Jul 6th 2022 at 2:58:47 PM

I know it's not fair, but honestly, the Wanda thing is why I still haven't seen Multiverse of Madness. I have no real interest in Wanda. I thought Wanda Vision was ok, but I couldn't really get into it, and now she suddenly rocks up as the villain in the second Dr Strange movie.

I'm a simple man. I just wanna see good new villains. I'm like the inverse of Comic Fans who always want to see new heroes adapted. XD

Edited by GNinja on Jul 6th 2022 at 10:48:11 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143554: Jul 6th 2022 at 3:43:26 PM

[up][up] Don't get me started on the stupid Morbius memes...

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143555: Jul 6th 2022 at 3:45:53 PM

Well soon we'll prolly be getting Kraven memes like how Kraven is ripping off Shang-Chi

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#143556: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:05:41 PM

Morbius isn't even that bad, it's just bad compared to the movies around it. It would fit right in with the likes of the mid-2000's bad comic book movies.

The legend has returned.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#143557: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:20:32 PM

Multiverse of Madness doing almost the exact same thing ("Look! It's Black Bolt from Inhumans, Captain Carter from What If?, and Professor X from the X-Men!") in the immediate next film didn't carry nearly as much impact the second time, and it came at the expense of actually fleshing out Doctor Strange's mythos.

And I always think the Illuminati's main purpose was so Wanda could kill them all for pure shock value.

Okey Dokey!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#143558: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:26:17 PM

I mean, yeah.

That's exactly their purpose. They were served up on a platter for Wanda to dine on, and she ate well.

It sucks, especially for Reed and Blackbolt, but that's how it goes.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143559: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:27:13 PM

That is one of the go-to uses for multiverses in comics. The Multiverse is easily mined for consequence-free carnage, since nothing that happens to another universe's characters has any meaningful effect on the main 616 continuity. We'll never see Earth-838 again, so it can be as much of a bloodbath as Raimi wants it to be and it won't actually affect anything.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143560: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:34:31 PM

No Way Home, Spider-Verse and Multiverse of Madness all use the concept of a multiverse for entirely different purposes. NHW uses for pure nostalgia of other iconic characters of the character's cinematic history, Spider-Verse to explore the idea that anybody can be Spider-Man, Multiverse Of Madness uses the multiversal concept for the grand old question of "the perils of thinking "what if"?" (with Wanda and Strange yearning for worlds where they can be happy, fruitlessly).

The Illuminati scene in specific is, I think, exactly the reverse of NHW's usage of the concept. The Illuminati are there to serve up the MCU fanservice of seeing Xavier and Mr. Fantastic (and the others I guess) only to leverage that emotional attachment we have for them to amp up the brutality and horror of Wanda's rampage (by way of brutally and swiftly butchering them all). They're fanservice cattle for narrative slaughter. It's a fairly gentle and tepid jab at the mentality of empty fanservice, although it was very definitely not a response to NHW specifically.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143561: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:35:53 PM

That is the problem I have with many What if? of the comics, being that many focus too much on wanting to kill characters for shock value, than on telling a story.

For example, in a Civil War what if: Do you really want me to believe that the same government that is totally incompetent when it comes to stopping villains, can somehow create an army of invincible robots that can kill all superheroes?

—-

Honestly, No way home and the animated movie seem better than the comics in that regard.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 6th 2022 at 4:39:00 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143562: Jul 6th 2022 at 4:42:56 PM

It’s a reoccurring issue of AU stories being slaughterfests

Tom Taylor has made a career of it with his Injustice, D Ceased, and Dark Knights of Steel comics all having characters dying in droves

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#143563: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:16:39 PM

I'll say that from my perspective, going the multiverse route was a mistake. I know lots of folks were excited about it, but it, like time travel, tends to lend itself to simultaneously theoretically higher stakes (all of time/the multiverse is at stake, not just here and now) and actually lower stakes (because of A Million Is a Statistic and because it gives too many ways to undo consequences and because it expands the range of players so broadly that no threat can believably threaten all of the parties who would oppose them).

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143564: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:21:21 PM

And to think the multiverse all exists because Hulk had to take the stairs.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143565: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:24:02 PM

[up] But what if...he didn't?!?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#143566: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:37:31 PM

[up][up]... Okay, that part is hilarious XD

Personally I'm not bothered by having a lot of multiversal stuff - what bothers me is essentially two things:

1) they really aren't doing that much with it for the most part. Loki mostly focused on the whole TVA stuff, and only had a few alternate versions of Loki show up, often as little more than cameos with no real elaboration on their backstories (even Sylvie, despite being a central character, barely gets to have her timeline shown, let alone why they even tried to prune her). No Way Home just used the concept as an excuse to bring back characters from the previous movie continuities. Dr Strange 2, despite being titled "in the Multiverse of Madness, only shows off the Multiverse in a very short scene and then focus on only 2 alternate universes, one of which was already mostly destroyed when we found it and the other giving its interesting characters the usual comic book treatment (Seriously, comic book writers, STOP using the Alternate Universe concept to express your murderous urges). What if came the closest to truly exploring the concept, and even then the possibilities they explored were hit and miss.

1) They seem absolutely unable to make the various ways they explore the concept coherent with each other. Loki established the Sacred Timeline concept and the TVA, and end with the Multiverse just now being re-created... but then What If doesn't acknowledge the events of that show, features its own system with the Guardian watching over everything, and acts as if it's always been like this. Then No Way Home suggests all Spider-Man movies were part of that Multiverse.... suggesting these continuities no longer existed until the TVA was shattered, I guess? And then Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness introduce its whole new set of rules, including dreams actually being windows to Alternate Universes (raising the question of how people even dreamed back when the TVA endorced the Sacred Timeline), America being somehow unique across the entire Multiverse, and the idea that travelling between Universes potentially can cause them to destroy one another, along with the Scarlet Witch prophecized to rule over or destroy it all... for crying out loud Marvel, choose a system and 'stick to it!

Edited by Theokal3 on Jul 6th 2022 at 2:40:19 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143567: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:43:14 PM

I didn’t take the dreams thing to mean that 100% of dreams are definitely just alternate universes

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143568: Jul 6th 2022 at 5:51:39 PM

I agree they haven't really been using the multiverse and alternate versions to actually major effect.

Like there is a wealth of difference here to stories like Spider-Man Noir or Superman: Red Son to the Illuminati.

Or like when Kingdom Come Superman crossed over/appeared in the JSA comic.

The alternate characters are actually explored in good detail with their unique differences fully showed making them interesting characters.

Like shit the Illuminati had Maria Rambeau as Captain Marvel. We learn nothing about her, we don't know how she's different from Carol, we don't know her relationship with Carol and what happened to her, we don't know her relationship with Monica.

Like Maria Marvel is interesting from a conception standpoint similar to "What if Flash Thompson became Spider-Man instead of Peter" but the movie doesn't delve into her character.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 6th 2022 at 5:54:36 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#143569: Jul 6th 2022 at 6:03:07 PM

[up]I mean, to be fair, so far they've been establishing what the multiverse is and how it works. That stuff may be coming once they decide they want it and overcome the 'incursion' barrier they've created for themselves.

fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
"To watch it all burn."
#143570: Jul 6th 2022 at 6:15:27 PM

[up][up][up][up]To be fair, Loki is nonlinear and takes place outside of normal time and space. When the Multiverse was unleashed, Nexus events began popping off from all points in the timeline, including before the Battle of New York. So for Loki, Sylvie, the TVA, and us, the Multiverse had only just been unleashed. But for everyone else, the multiverse had always existed because it established itself retroactively.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143571: Jul 6th 2022 at 6:27:02 PM

The dreams thing in Multiverse of Madness is really dumb. "You're actually peering into an alternate self's reality" strips away the psychological aspect of it.

Like yeah, technically speaking, in an infinite multiverse every dream you have should exist as reality somewhere out there, but I feel like it diminishes trauma. "You're not having outlandish nightmares due to trauma from killing another human being or witnessing your family die, you're just looking at another universe where that's happening for real" lacks the same oomph as if it were purely a fabrication of the mind.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 6th 2022 at 9:28:06 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#143572: Jul 6th 2022 at 6:32:19 PM

[up]Yeaaaah I kinda have the same thought. I know comics never worked on hard science but it always bothers me when they do that.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143573: Jul 6th 2022 at 8:17:51 PM

Also, now that I think about it, how the hell does the dreams thing work when you having PTSD-induced nightmares like Bucky in TFATFS or Tony in Iron Man 3? That wasn't looking into another universe or some bullshit, that's stuff that actually happened and is trauma that they're reliving when they're asleep. So what gives?

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jul 6th 2022 at 8:20:03 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#143575: Jul 6th 2022 at 8:44:48 PM

Maybe this was before the stuff with the TVA, so dreams weren't yet a window into the Multiverse.

For all we know, the events of Loki were still ongoing when FATWS was happening, and obviously, it didn't happen back during IM 3.

One Strip! One Strip!

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