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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143501: Jul 5th 2022 at 2:48:54 PM

Shang-Chi does have the often stated problem that the climax basically ends once Wenwu dies because he was the emotional centerpoint of the film and the final battle with the demon leaves you with feeling nothing.

It has a name, you know. It's the, uh...

Um....

It's the...

Give me a moment, it will come to me.

Whatever the case, the Something Something is a VERY IMPORTANT part of that movie!

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143502: Jul 5th 2022 at 2:53:51 PM

[up] It's called the Dweller-In-Darkness.

Though I just refer to it as "the big CGI dragon", cause that's really what it is.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143503: Jul 5th 2022 at 2:58:11 PM

I remember its name solely because the character it's named after is a semi-reccurring presence in Marvel cosmology as the most prominent lovecraftian stand-in this side of Shuma-Gorath.

Both Doctor Strange movies have relatively inventive climaxes among MCU material (and the character is part of the emblematic sequence in IW where he and Thanos have a bonafide Wizard Duel), so it seems like Strange in particular lends himself well to creative throwdowns (plus MOM also having that fantastic musical duel between the Stranges).

Hawkeye is the one I most enjoyed. I'm not sure what was going through the motions about it. but I am partial the character and glad he finally got a chance in the spot light.

I enjoyed Hawkeye as well. It just didn't feel like it brought anything new to the table aesthetically or narrative. It was a fairly bog-standard buddy cop comedy, light and breezy, nothing much to talk about. Hence "going through the motions", it's very safe and familiar to the general MCU brand.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143504: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:01:13 PM

It shows Marvel can't really commit to the genre.

A martial arts film generally ends in a climactic brawl between 2 humans, Shang-Chi ending with the big CG fight against a dragon is pretty antithetical.

I watched several films, The Raid duology, the Ip Man films, and they all end with a simple one on one furious match (or 2 on one in Raid 1's case where Rama teams up with his brother to fight against Mad Dog)

The final battle in Raid 2 between Rama and the Assassin takes place in a kitchen and they go at it with such ferocity that it surpasses most climaxes in these movies. Its just 2 guys fighting and its fantastic.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 5th 2022 at 3:02:18 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143505: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:22:41 PM

Some Wuxia (which are somewhat distinct from pure Kung Fu films) films do have "big cgi battles" (as it were) but they tend to stick to very interpersonal dramatic motives even during them regardless, something that Shang-Chi dips out on after Wenwu gets resolved. The baseline Kung Fu films are usually just good old-fashioned fistfights (in fact, their relative mundanity compared to Wuxia tipping more to fantasy is one of the most common distinctions).

The admitted inspiration the creators had is Kung Fu Hustle. A poster of it can be seen in Shang's room, Wenwu's steel arm rings seem to borrow from The Tailor's arm rings in it and Yuen Wah plays the Lanlord in KFH and the elder archer fellow in Shang-Chi (in what is kind of a gigantic waste but I digress). It makes sense, given KFH has a lot of admitted winks and elements related to superheroes (complete with one character outright saying "With great power comes great responsabilities"), so it boggles the mind a bit that they didnd't follow that film's route with the final showdown between its superpowered hero and its fiendish demonic foe.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143506: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:40:24 PM

Part of the issue with the Dweller-in-Darkness is that it just feels superfluous. Shang-Chi has to stop Wenwu from rolling over Ta Lo because Wenwu will release a horrific evil if he wins. But you could just as well write it so that Shang-Chi has to stop Wenwu from rolling over Ta Lo because rolling over Ta Lo is bad.

The statement, "We should not let Wenwu massacre this village full of people," did not need to have apocalyptic stakes stapled to it. We were talking earlier about Marvel's aversion to low stakes, and this should rightly have been a low-stakes conflict. Wenwu and Shang-Chi having a martial arts duel for the fate of their family and this village Wenwu would destroy.

And then maybe their conflict could have a proper conclusion, instead of Wenwu suddenly getting ganked by a monster nobody cares about. When you're putting escalating the stakes above satisfying character beats, you're doing it wrong.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 5th 2022 at 3:42:01 AM

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#143507: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:41:55 PM

But Wenwu's motivation is that he wanted to bring his wife back to life, and the Dweller lied to him that it could do it.

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143508: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:51:02 PM

In conclusion, Black Widow, Moon Knight, Shang-chi and (though not Marvel) Suicide Squad suffer from having a worldwide threat in a movie or tv series that didn't need a worldwide threat.

I'm worried that if they do season 4 of Daredevil, they decide to make Wilson Fisk a global threat, even if that was against the character.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 5th 2022 at 3:53:11 AM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#143509: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:53:45 PM

It is suffered from just a lack of confidence In Hawkeye as a lead though seeing as they felt the need to throw Kate, Echo, Yelena and Kingpin in the mix.

The thing is Clint isn't the main character in Hawkeye. Kate is. That's something that only really clicked with me watching the first episode intro which is just a montage of her life achievements. Hawkeye is less about Clint learning to accept the name and more about Kate earning it for herself.

I do agree with it on Kingpin though. Though maybe it's less lack of confidence per se and more a need to turn everything into an event.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143510: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:57:07 PM

[up] Well yes but they chose to make Kate the main character they were focussing on instead of Clint.

I like Kate but Clint should have had an actual solo project at some point. (preferably phase 2 at the very latest same with Nat.)

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143511: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:04:28 PM

Yeah I'm apprehensive about the Netflix shows coming back as Disney+ shows. Like, I really really wanna see them be continued, but given the Disney+ shows' track records so far I'm worried they're gonna fuck it up. Even at their best (Wandavision and Moon Knight) they still cannot compare to the Netflix MCU's writing quality and tone.

Nowhere is this better exemplified than Kingpin's appearance in Hawkeye as just a big thug who shows up for the final battle, with none of the menace or pathos his Netflix counterpart showcased.

And even Iron Fist S1's and Jessica Jones S2's writing are leagues better than the puerile, fanficcy garbage that was What If?.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Jul 5th 2022 at 7:07:31 AM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143512: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:05:55 PM

[up]*3. Also, Echo and Yelena seem perfect to me as antagonists, because they are reflections of Clint's past.

Echo is from his time as a Ronin, and Yelena is the guilt Clint feels over Natasha's death.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 5th 2022 at 4:07:39 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#143513: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:07:14 PM

Just the simple act of expanding a lot of their runtimes would help significantly in my opinion. Every single one of the Phase 4 shows including What If suffers from some degree of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot to some degree.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 5th 2022 at 7:08:07 AM

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143514: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:08:40 PM

Although I don't think they should last 13 episodes.

The netflix series were great, but I think they had too much padding.

Daredevil Season 1 was created to feel like a long movie, but it felt like they had filler to pull it off.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 5th 2022 at 4:09:49 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143515: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:13:03 PM

Well, good news. If they get Disney Plus shows, they'll probably only get six episodes.

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DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143516: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:14:27 PM

I think you miss my point, I think they should be longer, but without reaching 13 episodes.

Sarcasm is not necessary.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143517: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:15:01 PM

It is noted that a low of shows had a lot of shit got cut out.

Like there are actually more interactions between Kingpin and Echo that got cut to deleted scenes.

And its all due to Covid screwing up production on a massive scale.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143518: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:15:02 PM

Funny, I felt DD S1 was one of the few to make the best use of its 13-episode runtime.

But yeah, 13 is too much, but 6 is way too little. 10 like Iron Fist S2 got would be nice, though in an ideal world it'd be on a show-by-show basis.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#143519: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:18:12 PM

Honestly, as great as it is to see Vincent D'Onofrio back in the role, it did kinda destroy the emotional finale of Daredevil Season 3.

I so loved Matt's crying "I BEAT YOU!"

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DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143520: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:18:34 PM

Speaking of What If?, one disappointing thing is that some potential sequels hook were resolved off-screen, or in less than two minutes.

  • Kilmonger being King: Resolved off-screen, with Pepper and Shuri on their way to arrest him.
  • Loki being king: Black Widow kicks him and ends his reign easily.
  • Ego meets his son: Ego is stopped off-screen.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jul 5th 2022 at 4:18:50 AM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#143521: Jul 5th 2022 at 4:58:18 PM

That's how it goes with Fisk, though: he always finds a way to come back, even if he's a pathetic shadow of who he was running small-time operations out of an abandoned storefront like some low-level nobody that he would have barely noticed. Fisk in his current state is the kind of guy who would have been paying him for permission to operate because he was way too small to ever have even the potential to pose a threat down the line.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143522: Jul 5th 2022 at 5:13:59 PM

I'll give What If some leeway in that it's nature of being bad fanfiction about the MCU is basically what it's supposed to be. Sure, the series as a whole wasn't overly impressive, but was the bar really set that high in the first place?

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jul 5th 2022 at 5:14:18 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Dictionaryman616 Since: Mar, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#143523: Jul 5th 2022 at 5:16:55 PM

Yeah, it was. It literally was. It was so obvious, they were even gonna make a Star Lord T'Challa spin-off but Chadwick passed away unfortunately.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#143524: Jul 5th 2022 at 5:18:09 PM

The MCU is in a precarious place; it can't deviate too much without turning away long time fans (Eternals) but its also a slave to its own formula too.

.....God, it really has become a Comic Book in movie form. Because those are the same exact issues lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143525: Jul 5th 2022 at 5:23:32 PM

[up][up] Look, I love T'Challa as much as the next guy, and I'm still really sad that Chadwick Boseman is gone. But if I'll be honest, the idea of a Star-Lord T'Challa series seems really superflous, and I'm not sure if it would be all that great. It literally just feels like a filler show made for the sake of making content. Same with I Am Groot and "Marvel Zombies" show that Marvel has planned.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Jul 5th 2022 at 5:23:44 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."

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