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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#143451: Jul 5th 2022 at 12:50:24 AM

Those fears were valid in the first movie, when M'Baku was just getting introduced. But we know M'Baku now, we've seen him in three movies now, he's great, he's well-loved. I don't think there would be much controversy now about giving him gorilla-themed superpowers, now that he's an established and well-written character.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143452: Jul 5th 2022 at 1:35:44 AM

And this is messing with the attempted back to basics approach Phase 4 is trying to do as its simultaneously trying be simpler but is still in full crossover mode so the mood is off.

For continuity the only Phase 4 things you had to see to keep up were Black Widow for Hawkeye and WandaVision for Doctor Strange (and not to get into that but even that didn't make Strange make sense)

edit: quoteblock tags

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 5th 2022 at 9:36:06 AM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143453: Jul 5th 2022 at 2:58:06 AM

[up][up] Part of him being well-liked was the fact that he did not have an ape-themed alias. There is a reason he wasn't called Man-Ape and it had nothing to do with him just being introduced. Black people being compared to apes historically has far too many negative connotations.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143454: Jul 5th 2022 at 3:01:52 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] I think cause TV shows are regarded as inherently more of an investment than movies.

[up] I'm fairly amused the comics killed off M'Baku a while ago and later on brought back a clearly Winston Duke M'Baku.

Yeah they really don't want Man-Ape anymore. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143455: Jul 5th 2022 at 5:47:46 AM

I hear a lot of people talking about fatigue but I don't think it really exists because so many people are watching new movies and series. I was chatting to a friend who admitted that he found the complexity a bit overwhelming, but that is what I liked so much about the MCU, so I highly doubt that Disney + is causing a huge problem for the movies, if anything it allowing them to expand there verse. Heck flashes forward five years people might be saying it was the saving grace of phase 4.

I have seen that the MCU has been getting just a lot of heat lately and wondering why that is, and the Corridor Crew gave a theory that I find Ironic, it is a victim of its own success because it really raised the bar with the events leading up to Endgame and Endgame itself, so a lot of people expectations are geared to that level.

Sincerely S Awatching.
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#143456: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:01:16 AM

[up][up] Giving M'Baku a lot of Sun Wukong-esque traits also helped a lot - focusing on the Monkey King archetype was the way to go.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143457: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:03:36 AM

I agree that the crossovers taking over characters' franchises is a problem. Unfortunately, it's one that's probably not going away any time soon because they sell. Jesus Christ, do the crossovers sell.

No Way Home is trash as a Spider-Holland film, but it nonetheless made nearly $2 billion. It's by far the highest grossing Spider-Man movie ever made, making almost as much as Homecoming and Far From Home combined. During COVID.

Multiverse of Madness's box office gain wasn't quite so hyperbolic, but it still showed just under a 50% jump in sales figures from Strange's previous movie. Thor: Ragnarok is similarly Thor's best showing at the theater. Civil War? Like Strange, Civil War saw just under a 50% jump in sales figures from Winter Soldier exceeding the billion mark by a significant margin where other Captain America films never approached it.

The message is pretty clear: These movies sell. They're what Marvel's fans crave. They don't want to see Ant-Man fight Scarlet Beetle; They want to see Ant-Man team up with Moon Knight and the Hawkeyes to fight the Time Variance Authority. They want more interconnectivity, not less. Nothing more reliably sells tickets.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 5th 2022 at 6:04:43 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143458: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:06:57 AM

[up] Correlation is not causation. Plus they are not doing none crossover-y things to compare it with.

The previous Spidey movies were MCU Crossovers as well.

Thor Ragnarok sold itself on as much on the change in tone as having Strange and Hulk as well as Thor.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143459: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:12:09 AM

Correlation is indeed not causation, and they are doing non-crossover-y things to compare to. But in every instance where they've done both, the crossovers always blow the non-crossovers out of the water.

Do you know what the top ten highest-grossing MCU films are?

  1. Avengers: Endgame
  2. Avengers: Infinity War
  3. Spider-Man: No Way Home
  4. The Avengers
  5. Avengers: Age of Ultron
  6. Black Panther
  7. Iron Man 3
  8. Captain America: Civil War
  9. Spider-Man: Far From Home
  10. Captain Marvel

Crossovers dominate that list. Sometimes solo heroes are cool enough to make as much money by themselves as other characters do in crossovers. T'Challa and Tony demonstrate that rather clearly here. But they still do even better in crossovers, as demonstrated by Spider-Man.

The facts are inarguable. The crossovers sell better than the solo films do.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143460: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:19:58 AM

You've agreed that correlation is not (necessarily) causation. Then banged on some more about the same correlation you've made.

Yes the team up movies do well as do apparently culminations of story arcs and films they can plug are firsts for representation.

That doesn't mean people only want crossovers and team ups. You can't make every story full of crossovers. You've got to have the solo movies for the down time and build up and character establishment that they don't have time to do in the team movies.

eta: though it is counter intuitive the alter movies making more money, aside from inflation, I wonder if more people saw the later movies or more people saw it repeatedly.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jul 5th 2022 at 2:25:33 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143461: Jul 5th 2022 at 6:26:54 AM

I don't disagree. You do need solo movies for all that stuff. But at the end of the day, that's exactly the mindset that we're dealing with now: Where solo movies exist to lay groundwork for the real money-makers: the crossovers.

That is exactly how Marvel sees it, and the direction we're heading in now is the inevitable endpoint for that philosophy of filmmaking: De-emphasizing solo projects and searching for ways that cash cow crossovers can be used to serve the same purpose that less lucrative solo projects already do.

Comic book fans are already familiar with this endpoint. It's plagued comic writing for decades.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 5th 2022 at 6:28:19 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#143462: Jul 5th 2022 at 7:35:04 AM

Oof Love and Thunder in 74% RT

Just Makima.
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143463: Jul 5th 2022 at 8:06:00 AM

It will most likely go up. As more people go to see it.

Edited by SAwatching on Jul 5th 2022 at 5:06:49 PM

Sincerely S Awatching.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143464: Jul 5th 2022 at 8:06:26 AM

Out of 64 reviews, of the hundreds that will come in. Expect to see that number change, for better or worse.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 5th 2022 at 8:06:45 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143465: Jul 5th 2022 at 8:28:15 AM

Decided to see what people's impressions are on Love and Thunder online. They aren't too positive so far.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143466: Jul 5th 2022 at 8:36:39 AM

@windleleopard: To be duly noted M'baku already is verbally acknowledged in-dialogue as "The Great Gorilla" in the first BP movie once or twice.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#143467: Jul 5th 2022 at 9:16:56 AM

[up]

M'baku already is verbally acknowledged in-dialogue as "The Great Gorilla"

And that's more of a Red Baron example than a racial slur. Why not use that from now on where M'Baku calls himself "Great Gorilla" as a hammy way to make an entrance?

SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143468: Jul 5th 2022 at 9:25:53 AM

"Decided to see what people's impressions are on Love and Thunder online. They aren't too positive so far."

That's called review bombing. It is doubtless great but a hundred and one trolls are going to say it's awful just because.

Sincerely S Awatching.
uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#143469: Jul 5th 2022 at 9:28:07 AM

Though the critical reception also seems to trend downwards its now at 68% with 97 reviews.

[up][up]I've seen quite a bit of praise for the fact that they did not just throw out the ape theme but instead managed to turn it into something that felt empowering instead of degrading.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jul 5th 2022 at 6:30:51 PM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#143470: Jul 5th 2022 at 10:06:48 AM

Yeah, I mean, there's still a fair bit of "noble savage" in his characterization, but it's made clear that he deliberately plays it up to make people misread him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#143471: Jul 5th 2022 at 10:16:35 AM

So curious do you think we'll see Kid Loki again as a Young Avenger. He was the Big Bad of volume 2.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143472: Jul 5th 2022 at 10:27:27 AM

Probably not. The MCU take on Kid Loki was basically nothing like comic Kid Loki.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#143473: Jul 5th 2022 at 11:29:51 AM

From what I have seen, the outlook from the critics seems to be very mixed. No one is saying it is outright bad, but they seem to run the gamut of mid to great.

The legend has returned.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143474: Jul 5th 2022 at 11:32:59 AM

So it hasn’t improved from Ragnarok?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Dictionaryman616 Since: Mar, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#143475: Jul 5th 2022 at 11:34:35 AM

It has, it's just that since the film isn't released for baseline individuals, they seem to give mixed reviews. It improved from Ragnarok.


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