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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#143151: Jun 20th 2022 at 10:55:10 PM

For what it's worth Ethan Hawke had a good take on the whole matter where he argued the question of the question of whether superhero movies are true art or not is a stupid question altogether because of the way it drowns out smaller films.

I personally disagree with his considering the first Doctor Strange to be among the most passion-driven films as I felt it was one of the least distinct ones in Phase 3, but I digress.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143152: Jun 20th 2022 at 11:00:33 PM

He also made the point that part of the issue is how competitive things have gotten with stuff like Rotten Tomatoes scores and box office numbers. Or more specifically, people looking at those numbers to validate their decision to watch a movie as opposed to simply appreciating the movie.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143153: Jun 20th 2022 at 11:08:23 PM

I personally disagree with his considering the first Doctor Strange to be among the most passion-driven films as I felt it was one of the least distinct ones in Phase 3, but I digress.

Important thing to note: Hawke seems to be good friends with Scott Derrickson, who directed Doctor Strange, as he starred in Derrickson's Sinister and is set to star in his upcoming The Black Phone (ironically, the film that got Derrickson the Strange gig and the film that Derrickson made after leaving Doctor Strange 2, respectively). So his perspective is probably coloured by that.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 20th 2022 at 11:10:09 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143154: Jun 20th 2022 at 11:25:04 PM

I actually liked Doctor Strange in large part because it's about a guy getting over himself and becoming a hero by realizing that not everything is about him.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#143155: Jun 20th 2022 at 11:46:01 PM

I've actually grown softer on the first Doctor Strange (admittedly part of that is because I wound up preferring it to Multigrain of Madrid).

Yeah it's got the same plot beats as Iron Man (arrogant genius is made to eat humble pie, uses invention/magic to climb back up, starts using his new powers for superheroics and learns a lesson in humility despite being more powerful than ever), they absolutely wasted Mikkelsen as Kaecillius, and the fight scenes were too much punchy-kicky and not enough actual magic, but it also has some strong writing, I appreciate the lack of a romantic interest, the special effects are really cool and trippy, Strange's character arc itself is really strong, and the final "battle" with Dormammu is legit my favorite scene in the entire MCU for a multitude of reasons (including it being an excellent culmination of Strange's aforementioned arc).

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143156: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:15:53 AM

I think Strange's twist was that he was still proud of his origins after become a superhero and wanted to keep the 'do no harm' aspect of being a doctor. And was genuinely torn up when he heard people which is a rarity among movie heroes. (Spideys the only other big example I can think off the top and that was played more for laughs in Homecoming)

As [up] says this leads to the creative time loop solution rather than a traditional mirror match punch up as the final battle.

Kind of sad that that's lost in subsequent appearances though not surprising giving IW's stakes,

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143157: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:33:27 AM

Even in IW, Strange realized that the only way to win would involve losing first. And in a way that would get him dusted for years too.

"It was the only way."

It's not that different from what he pulled against Dormammu. He realized the only way to beat Dormammu would be to lose to Dormammu an untold number of times first.

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2022 at 10:35:14 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143158: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:34:22 AM

Dr Strange is great at winning by losing

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143159: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:38:28 AM

He has to be, considering how often he's pitted against far more powerful magical beings. He has no chance in a straight fight against the likes of Dormammu, Shuma-Gorath, or Zom the Living Weapon. So he has to get creative, and usually in a way that takes its toll on him.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143160: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:39:30 AM

The main difference is that against Dormammu, Strange had to live through one failure and death after another before Dormammu finally relented. To everyone else, it was a blink of an eye, but for Strange, it was untold eons of repeating the same horrific fate until one of their wills broke.

Against Thanos, Strange got to let the Avengers spend five years doing the heavy labor, while he got to blink five years forward, skipping everything between the two battles.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143161: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:46:39 AM

That said, I can't imagine being dead for five years then suddenly being thrust back into life was all that fun either.

Disgusted, but not surprised
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143162: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:48:08 AM

I must admit I wasn't thinking of IW exactly but Endgame where he's casually massacring a bunch of mook in the final battle before having to stop the flood.

I was going to say there's no indication he wouldn't have used lethal force against Thanos in IW if he thought it would work but it would hilarious if the odds were so long because Strange was like 'portalling off his head would involve me killing someone and I'm a doctor, can't do that'.

Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#143163: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:52:46 AM

Strange is the kind of guy who feels like he has to do everything himself for things to work out, yet his way of winning in Endgame basically passes the ball to Tony and the others.

Wake me up at your own risk.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143164: Jun 21st 2022 at 7:54:35 AM

A lot of stuff treats Thanos’ foot soldiers as practically non sentient or a robot army

Or at best like feral animals

Edited by Bocaj on Jun 21st 2022 at 10:55:12 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#143165: Jun 21st 2022 at 8:21:57 AM

His Black order are basically like Saruman's Orcs yeah

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143166: Jun 21st 2022 at 8:34:56 AM

The point of the Endgame battle was to have a cool high-spectacle battle where all the MCU's recognizable characters fight the Battle of Pelennor Fields against a never-ending onslaught of space orcs. I don't think the Russos really considered how any given moment was supposed to tie into the established stories of individual characters. It was just a prolonged Rule of Cool sequence.

In fact, I know they didn't because they have Spider-Man out there killing people. They also put Pepper Potts in an Iron Man suit when her abject loathing of this side of Tony's life has been her single most consistent character trait; Hell, the previous film literally had her talking shit about how Tony wouldn't still be making Iron Man tech if he was serious about starting a family with her.

So. Yeah. Strange's involvement in the Endgame battle itself probably wasn't supposed to be any sort of statement about his character. It was just there to look cool and make audiences go "WOOHOO!" The commentary on his character was his "Just one timeline" machinations.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 21st 2022 at 8:37:07 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143167: Jun 21st 2022 at 8:43:03 AM

Yes and No.

The Spider-man thing is a last resort and a pay off of a gag from Homecoming. The creatures he kills are the most animalistic non-sapient ones.

And Pepper is the one who convinces Tony to go back into action in Endgame, admitting she never can get him to give it up and he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he didn't try and bring anyone back.

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143168: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:27:30 AM

The fact that Thanos' army is treated as space orcs, is that even Corvus and Cull who were supposed to be the "strong ones", were easily killed as if they were simple Mooks.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#143169: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:34:39 AM

In the comics isn’t Corvus just Batman strong with a super magic space glaive?

Edited by Bocaj on Jun 21st 2022 at 12:34:51 PM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#143170: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:39:54 AM

[up]Said glaive also does give him Resurrective Immortality as long as it remains intact wich is deffinitly not the case in the MCU.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jun 21st 2022 at 6:41:58 PM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#143171: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:40:03 AM

The comics fleshed them about because they could,the films don't have that same luxury,so they're less interesting in the fims

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#143172: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:46:03 AM

The MCU Black Order mainly exist so the characters on earth have someone to fight while Thanos is collecting the stones. There was never any intention to flesh them out as characters.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143173: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:46:14 AM

Corvus was only marginally more effective in IW, he only succeeds by stabbing Vision in the back. Cap's team effortlessly take him out in a straight fight with teamwork. (One of my favourite moments)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143174: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:53:47 AM

With the benefit of hindsight— (punched by Hulk)

Okay, rephrasing. Looking back, it might have been a good idea to introduce the Black Order over time as well; Not just the Infinity Gems. Put one of them with Loki in Avengers, for example. Maybe fit one or two into Guardians of the Galaxy. Maybe rope one into Thor: Ragnarok?

That way, it feels more punchy when they're all together for Infinity War. As it is, they just come across as elite mooks.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 21st 2022 at 9:54:16 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#143175: Jun 21st 2022 at 9:55:52 AM

Yeah but... elite mooks is what they are? Do they need to be more than that?


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