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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#143126: Jun 20th 2022 at 4:04:31 PM

[up][up] That's why American cinema of the 1970s was the last Golden Age of cinema. It was a time where American cinema truly matured and allowed a variety of unique and sophisticated films to be told on the big screen. Back in the time, low-brow fare like Exploitation Films, B Movies and second-rate features from major studios only played at grindhouse theaters, drive-in theaters and theaters of lower merit.

It was only the movie A New Hope, directed by George Lucas, ended the New Hollywood era and the 1970s American cinema. It ushered in The Blockbuster Age Of Hollywood, in which films were only made to churn out a profit instead of art became the dominant form of moviemaking.

Note: Page-topper.

Edited by AdeptGaderius on Jun 20th 2022 at 7:05:09 PM

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143127: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:03:38 PM

So it's George Lucas' fault? Good to know.

Also I think the golden age is too idealized.

That is to say, it was the time when asian characters were played by white actors wearing false teeth.

Edited by DarthNoxIsCool on Jun 20th 2022 at 6:07:43 AM

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#143128: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:13:13 PM

[up] Are you referring to Kung Fu (1972) and Breakfast at Tiffany's? Yeah, I know that it's cringe-worthy to think of it. But that will be enough as this thread is for Marvel Cinematic Universe, not cinema in general.

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143129: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:18:41 PM

But the way you talk, you imply that until the 70's was the best time in Hollywood, until the "evil" Star Wars attacked and changed everything.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143130: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:19:00 PM

I'd agree that the conceptions of Golden Ages for Hollywood tend to be fabricated and idealized, and kind of break down upon examination.

For instance, we talk a lot on the forum - including (arguably especially) on this thread - on how one of the big differences in modern filmmaking and prior decades is that auteur theory is becoming less prized as the pinnacle of filmmaking, and how that's not really a bad thing due to how exploitative and restrictive an effect auteur theory has on film output.

But in terms of "media for highbrow audiences" and "media for lowbrow audiences," you're also seeing a lot fo pushback on the idea of highbrow culture as something that must remain separate from regular people's culture in general society. It's another one of those restrictive and largely arbitrary elitist stigmas that's people tend to have less patience for nowadays.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 20th 2022 at 6:21:12 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143131: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:27:39 PM

For instance, we talk a lot on the forum - including (arguably especially) on this thread - on how one of the big differences in modern filmmaking and prior decades is that auteur theory is becoming less prized as the pinnacle of filmmaking, and how that's not really a bad thing due to how exploitative and restrictive an effect auteur theory has on film output.

Conversely, I've seen some counter-pushback to that insofar as people getting frustrated with the MCU feeling too "made by committee" (a criticism leveled at Disney's recent filmography in general, admittedly) and wanting something with a distinctive artistic vision and creativity.

Like, it's no secret that a lot of people have criticized the cinematography and editing of the MCU, and even in this thread people have criticized the "third act CGI fight scene" stuff.

It's not necessarily wanting "auteurism", but it's definitely wanting, like...something mildly distinctive from the style the MCU has settled into as of late.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143132: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:28:16 PM

I never said the MCU was the pinnacle of filmmaking either.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143133: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:28:52 PM

I never implied that was what was being discussed either.

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#143134: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:31:53 PM

[up] Can you link to your discussion about the auteur theory? I'm interested on how you discussed it.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143135: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:33:46 PM

Can you link to your discussion about the auteur theory? I'm interested on how you discussed it.

I don't know what that means, I don't recall really talking about it a lot. I'm not particularly a proponent of auteur theory anyways.

AdeptGaderius Otaku from the Anime World Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Otaku
#143136: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:41:58 PM

[up] Sorry, I was referring to the troper Known Unknown.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#143137: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:42:58 PM

It would take a really, really long time to back through the thread, pick out exactly when it took place and get a link to it, so I'm afraid I can't do that.

It's just something that comes up with relative frequency around here.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#143138: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:44:35 PM

My view is that the crowding out of “high art” with blockbusters has less to do with artistic quality and more to do capitalism treating media like a game of Highlander. Look how Pixar movies at the height of their critical and audience acclaim spelled the end for handdrawn animation, through no fault of their own except being really good and widely loved. Because Hollywood took the message of “go all in on CG, throw out the scribbles”. If Star Wars or the MCU hadn’t happened, something else would’ve taken their place and we might be debating here instead the endless deluge of pirate movies.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143139: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:50:01 PM

So we'd be living in Watchmen. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143140: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:52:30 PM

My view is that the crowding out of “high art” with blockbusters has less to do with artistic quality and more to do capitalism treating media like a game of Highlander. Look how Pixar movies at the height of their critical and audience acclaim spelled the end for handdrawn animation, through no fault of their own except being really good and widely loved. Because Hollywood took the message of “go all in on CG, throw out the scribbles”. If Star Wars or the MCU hadn’t happened, something else would’ve taken their place and we might be debating here instead the endless deluge of pirate movies.

Yeah, it's like how we saw a few shoddy attempts at recapturing the MCU's shared universe stuff (anyone remember the Dark Universe?). That's mostly faded away since, y'know, most studios seemed to just suck at doing it right (even DC has kind of taken the stance of "fuck shared continuity" to do whatever they want, with better results).

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#143141: Jun 20th 2022 at 6:54:12 PM

The problem with many studies is that many of them had a "count the eggs before you buy the first hen" mentality.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#143142: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:23:26 PM

Star Wars had its share of weight in the establishing of the blockbuster era, but there's a tendency to ascribe it solely to that. Jaws came first (1975, SW is 1977) and on the whole I'd say Spielberg has much more to do with the rehauling of Hollywood to the Blockbuster Era than Lucas could dream of (granted, they were associated). Spielberg didn't so much change Hollywood as he became Hollywood.

One criticism I've often had with the observations about the MCU and New Hollywood is the observation about auteur theory and the "singular artistic vision", because I think the traditional auteur theory concept of placing the director and his (and it is usually a his) vision upon a pedestal has led to demons of its own. More obviously the diminishing of other creative positions in the film, the eschewing of more collaborative forms of filmmaking, and giving directors a dangerous level of "bullet-proof" authority that can lead to abuse (physical, psychological and sexual).

I'm in favour of a pluralization of the auteur where the work's merits are judged more on everyone involved rather than simply a single man. The MCU's more "no one matters, only the brand"-ish approach isn't an improvement either, but it does allow for some interesting discussion about that, at least. Scorsese's statements (for example) always seem to me like they throw under the bus all the artists working in the MCU and doing their best to produce art because it was produced under industrial constraints.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143143: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:32:34 PM

It's also interesting to see how the MCU encourages many different forms of collaboration between people that you don't usually see in other movies or TV shows.

Within this big shared universe, sometimes writers and directors have to communicate with other writers and directors in order to see that their characters are consistent across different movies/TV shows. And in some cases like Samuel L. Jackson and Robert Downey Jr., you sometimes have actors who have been playing their characters for so long that they have a say in how their characters would do or say in certain situations.

Hell, just having the power to move in so many different directions with the same characters is pretty damn enticing. Previously, it usually was limited to three movies per franchise that focused on one character, under the vision of one person. Now we've got all sorts of characters running all over the place under many peoples' direction, and it's a challenge to weave everything together. You'd never get that in the movies of old, and it's pretty cool imo.

Seeing where James Gunn's world intersects with Taika Waititi's world, and how both intersect with The Russo Brothers' world is pretty fascinating, and getting to comment on who was utilized well in which installment is fun to debate about.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#143144: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:37:40 PM

OTOH, I think that each work should be able to stand on its own without requiring people to be familiar with various tv shows or other movies or whatever. They should be little bonuses, not essential to understanding what is going on in the movie.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143145: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:40:30 PM

That is a valid criticism, and one I see a lot online. I think that's why some people really liked Moon Knight a lot more than the other Disney+ TV shows, since it only has a couple of vague references to other films, but mostly stands on its own two feet.

Hell, part of the reason Infinity War was so exciting was because we were seeing the Guardians actually meet the Avengers for the first time, after two movies of their solo adventures.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#143146: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:41:12 PM

OTOH, I think that each work should be able to stand on its own without requiring people to be familiar with various tv shows or other movies or whatever. They should be little bonuses, not essential to understanding what is going on in the movie.

Yeah, the whole worry people have had for years about the MCU becoming more and more expansive and feeling like homework (it's always that expression "like homework" I've seen thrown around) seems to be coming true after Phase 3 ended. I hadn't even watched Wandavision before seeing Multiverse of Madness and I was kind of lost with Wanda's direction.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#143147: Jun 20th 2022 at 7:47:03 PM

[up] One guy I follow online complained how inherently frustrating and nonsensical the fifth episode of Hawkeye is if you didn't watch Black Widow, and I can definitely see why some would be confused due to how involved Yelena Belova is.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#143148: Jun 20th 2022 at 8:39:05 PM

I hadn't even watched Wandavision before seeing Multiverse of Madness and I was kind of lost with Wanda's direction.

That's okay. A lot of people did see Wanda Vision before Multiverse of Madness and were still lost with Wanda's direction.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 20th 2022 at 8:39:19 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#143149: Jun 20th 2022 at 8:40:54 PM

I'm reminded, man the Silver Surfer is awesome.

Rise of the Silver Surfer wasn't a great movie but he was among the better parts of it.

Really hope they bring the guy in here.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#143150: Jun 20th 2022 at 9:52:52 PM

The Silver Surfer really was the best part of that movie.


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