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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142801: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:10:09 PM

I'm not really trying to make a case of this, but I'm just cautioning you to cool it.

Oh hey, are you a mod? Any kind of authority?

I don't recognise your right to caution me and I don't think your arguments have been any more reasonable than mine.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 6th 2022 at 12:11:21 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142802: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:10:33 PM

No, but anybody in the thread can totally call one right now if you want one.

When I said "I didn't want to make a case out of this" I was being serious. Now I'm not cautioning you any more. Cool it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 4:12:33 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142803: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:12:59 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142804: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:22:48 PM

If you say you're cool, you're cool. It's not a big deal. Just keep it in mind. The knee-jerk response to that sort of comment shouldn't be to jump straight into hostility.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 4:25:20 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#142805: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:31:39 PM

Honestly I’m not even sure that the creative team for Infinity War-Endgame was all that interested in using Nebula. It felt to me that they were obligated to have her play some role because she was significant in the Infinity Gauntlet comics. But whether as her culminating role in the comic was to wield the Gauntlet itself, here she just gets captured twice then at most delays Thanos for half a minute when confronting her twin. I’m fine with Tony being the one to get the stones as a Bookend to how the MCU started, but Nebula’s role didn’t strike me as being viewed as essential.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#142806: Jun 6th 2022 at 5:49:54 PM

Man, I disappear for a few hours, and I miss three pages worth of arguing about the Guardians. Oh well.

Also, just realized Ms. Marvel drops tomorrow. Still not sure if I'm overly invested in the character or the show itself, but I will say that Iman Vellani is a very charismatic and devoted actress, and I hope she does well with what she has.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142807: Jun 6th 2022 at 6:39:24 PM

There's a "conservation of narrative ninjutsu" at work and there's just not enough for Drax to get any that late in the game. His one thing is that he wants to kill Thanos in a narrative where by Endgame practically everyone wants to kill Thanos. There's no real reason to ensure that Drax is the one to end Thanos other than obligation to comic book fans because that's how it worked in the comics, right?

Not really, no?

Everyone has to fight Thanos. But that's not the same as everyone having a deeply personal grievance that can only be quelled by fighting Thanos specifically.

Spider-Man has no personal enmity towards Thanos.

Captain Marvel has no personal enmity towards Thanos.

Thor does have a personal enmity towards Thanos but he resolved that when he killed the other Thanos.

Ant-Man has no personal enmity towards Thanos.

Black Panther has no personal enmity towards Thanos.

Etc. etc. The overwhelming majority of people involved in this battle are just heroes fighting a bad guy that wants to kill the universe. They have no relationship to Thanos, no personal investment. They're just doing heroism.

In fact, I think outside of the Guardians, the only character who has an established personal investment in Thanos is Tony. Thanos has been the driving force for his character arc since Avengers 1.

Even Steve doesn't really care about Thanos personally. That was part of his and Tony's argument in Age of Ultron. Tony's going nuts trying to figure out a way to defend the Earth from Thanos, and Steve just blows off the topic. So far as he was concerned, if Thanos happens, then the Avengers would just handle it like they always do.

So. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the complete list of characters who personally care about fighting Thanos are just Tony, Gamora, Drax, and Nebula. Everyone else is just being a hero.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#142808: Jun 6th 2022 at 6:52:41 PM

I feel like Vision and Wanda also had personal stakes, seeing as Vision would die if Thanos got to him.

The legend has returned.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#142809: Jun 6th 2022 at 9:01:31 PM

After the events of Infinity War, literally everyone in the universe has a personal reason to hate Thanos.

uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#142810: Jun 6th 2022 at 10:05:33 PM

[up][up]Wanda at least got to personally confront Thanos breafly.

Edited by uncertanSearcher on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:30:11 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142811: Jun 6th 2022 at 10:37:24 PM

Also, just realized Ms. Marvel drops tomorrow

So did I. I'm freaking out. In my mind, I just assumed it would be coming out after Kenobi was over.

This is a week. Ms. Marvel. Dragonball Super Hero. More Kenobi of course. Not to mention Street Fighter reveals and a trailer for the new Jedi game and.. ooof...

I half expect the first episode of Ms. Marvel to come with, like, a full trailer for The Marvels or Quantumania or something.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#142812: Jun 7th 2022 at 8:23:29 AM

Okay, so I may have forgotten that today is June 7th and not June 8th. So one more day.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142813: Jun 7th 2022 at 8:26:08 AM

Yeah, they drop on Wednesdays after Loki was a big success airing then iirc. Still... soon!

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#142814: Jun 7th 2022 at 11:41:23 AM

I'm just going to point out that Quill has been written as a joke no one takes seriously since the first Guardians film. If Gunn was upset with Quill's portrayal in Infinity War, he has no one but himself to blame for setting the precedent.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142815: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:01:00 PM

That is true.

Quill kinda had a Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass thing going.

He tracked down the Space Stone on his own, and arranged a buyer for it, then stole out from under the noses of Ronan's men.

He convinced Drax not to kill Gamora, then got her and Rocket to work with him to escape.

He came up with the plan to stop Ronan when he was attacking Zandar, and was the one who warned them (and despite their doubts, they did listen to him due to his not a big enough asshole to let this happen logic)

And despite its ridiculousness, his idea to distract Ronan worked, and bought Rocket enough time to jury rig a weapon to get the Stone out of the his hands. He basically weaponized his status as an idiot who no one takes seriously (and left Ronan completely flabbergasted).

He's less on the ball in the sequel, even before his dad entered the picture, but some of that is on Rocket as well (really, you think Quill wouldn't know how to fly his own ship?).

Hell, in Infinity War, he continually tries to form a plan to attack Thanos on Nowhere, only for everyone to keep ignoring him, even though his plans tend to work pretty well. Drax insisting on attacking Thanos right there gave them away, and Gamora deciding to jump in and just try to stab him got her captured.

Yes, Thanos had already gotten the stone, and the entire thing was a trap, but still. He was the only one actually trying to think things out.

And of course, while he ended up dropping the ball in the end, it was his plan that let them capture Thanos on Titan.

Though I do feel like Quill's own nature means works against him, considering how much effort he has to go through to get people to actually listen to what he's saying. This may in fact force him to actually grow up.

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142816: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:21:55 PM

I'm just going to point out that Quill has been written as a joke no one takes seriously since the first Guardians film. If Gunn was upset with Quill's portrayal in Infinity War, he has no one but himself to blame for setting the precedent.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Law enforcement doesn't take Quill seriously in the first film, but the people around him do - even if only as a problem they have to deal with. GOTG Quill is generally written as someone who's goofy and easy to underestimate, but at your peril because he's actually very clever. Similar to Scott, but the MCU as a whole gives Scott more respect (which I love).

That's the whole thing with Korath is about. A guy who actually has to deal with him comes to respect him, whereas Nova Corps just wants to arrest him and call it a day. But due to his actions, by the second film the Dude, Where's My Respect? angle goes away pretty much entirely.

It's not really the same as the Russo's take on him, which culminates in characters repeatedly dismissing him as an idiot and a screwup, and easily taking him out for laughs in Endgame.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:26:50 PM

DarthNoxIsCool Since: Jun, 2022
#142817: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:28:31 PM

Well, as Gamora became an example of Only Sane Man, Quill became dumber to create contrast.

uncertanSearcher It's always Season of the Witch from Germany Since: Oct, 2017
It's always Season of the Witch
#142818: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:34:02 PM

For all the times Quill is the butt of jokes in the guardian movies, he dues ultimatly get legit heroic moments in the climaxes.

In the infinity duology on the other hand, him screwing up the plan to beat Thanos is the last thing of any importance he does.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142819: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:50:05 PM

Fun fact: the "Quill tries to shoot Gamora but his shot turns into bubbles" scene wasn't in the original plan for Infinity War.

The script called for Quill to get cold feet, put down his gun, and let Thanos take Gamora. But Chris Pratt and James Gunn both objected heavily to this scene, resulting in it being changed during filming.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:50:23 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#142820: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:56:29 PM

Which honestly might not have been the best move, since it muddied the central theme of Infinity War and Endgame.

  • Infinity War: Thanos wins because he's willing to sacrifice people.

  • Endgame: Our heroes win because they're willing to sacrifice themselves.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:56:51 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142821: Jun 7th 2022 at 12:58:25 PM

[up][up]Good.

I like that.

It's an incredible sacrifice for a man who's had the things he loved (his mother, then his adoptive father) taken away from him to willingly shoot the current person he loves most when she asks him to.

And the sad part is, no one will ever know. Quill himself is the only one of the three who knows he pulled the trigger to still be alive.

Edit: [up] I don't know. I think it works. It's like I said before, the only person who was willing to pull the trigger was the guy everyone tries to treat as a joke.

And the only reason he failed is because Thanos is an asshole.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jun 7th 2022 at 12:59:57 PM

One Strip! One Strip!
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142822: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:01:26 PM

[up][up][up] i did not know it's interesting both in the writer's attitude to Quill and that Gunn and Pratt did have significant impact in how the Guardians were portrayed.

Given the effects work needed that must have been changed pretty early on.

[up] both Loki and Quill telegraph their attacks on Thanos/Gamora so badly it's no wonder they fail.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 7th 2022 at 9:03:03 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#142823: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:01:47 PM

Endgame: Our heroes win because they're willing to sacrifice themselves.

*coughs in Doctor Strange sacrificing Tony and Nat*

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:02:13 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142824: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:06:13 PM

I think at least a couple of the heroes being willing to sacrifice others is necessary, because it's things like that that ensure that Thanos looks like a hypocrite and maintains his villainy.

There was a ton of discourse when the movie first came out about whether it was presenting Thanos as right or even with some kind of moral high ground, and I remember one of the big counterpoints at the time was how the movie has clear example of how - when the heroes didn't act as he dismissed them and were actually willing to make hard choices to stop him - he would just ignore them and continue to aggrandize himself as the only one with the willpower.

If they had instead had the film without that scene, and the only example was Wanda literally only doing it when they had absolutely no other choice, I think the movie would've lost something pretty significant where Thanos is concerned. Scenes like the Quill scene and what he did to Etri are small, early examples of the myopia that see in Thanos towards the end and in the sequel.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:06:48 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142825: Jun 7th 2022 at 1:17:16 PM

Man, the dwarves are such a weird plot point because, like, it's there. Thanos broke from his own M.O. and decided to be wicked and cruel out of spite. He kills half of a society at random, except the dwarves who were completely exterminated save for the one guy who knows all of his plans, who he just tortured and then abandoned to go come up with ways to thwart him.

But what it actually means never gets explored. It's just a random example of Thanos being pointlessly cruel and malevolent that gets dropped context-free into the film while the rest of the movie is spent trying to make him out to be this complex and nuanced figure, and then no one ever speaks of it again. It feels like a scene out of a completely different script with a completely different take on Thanos accidentally found its way into this one.

"Thanos is a true believer in Malthusian economics and seeks what he believes to be a harsh but ultimately fair solution to the cosmic equation. He prides himself on a willingness to make sacrifices for a greater good, but are those sacrifices too much to ask? Oh and also he sometimes gets his murder-boner raging and exterminates a society completely just for funsies. But we don't talk about that. He is a deep and nuanced figure!"

It's kind of hilarious the way Endgame takes the exact opposite approach. They strip all of that philosophical shit right out of him. Nobody likes Thanos so he's going to murder the universe. Fuck you, that's why.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 7th 2022 at 1:18:21 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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