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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142776: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:08:45 PM

The Russos didn't drop the ball, the ball was missing before they even got there. Drax at the end of Got G 2 had already been Flanderized into a big dumb brute who cracks dumb jokes - the Russos simply left him there instead of spending the time that'd be needed to do a proper Character Rerailment.

[up] Watchtower gets what I am saying.

Russos didn't drop the ball. Gunn set Drax up and he would've known there was no realistic prospect of it being paid off in an Avengers film.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 6th 2022 at 11:10:30 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142777: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:09:59 PM

Drax at the end of Got G 2 had already been Flanderized into a big dumb brute who cracks dumb jokes - the Russos simply left him there instead of spending the time that'd be needed to do a proper Character Rerailment.

I'm not sure I follow this. GOTG 2 wasn't about Thanos, not in the same way the first movie was. Why does Drax not continuing the plotline in that one movie his mean that the plot point suddenly doesn't exist?

Especially given that Endgame is the same movie that brought back, say, Steve's romantic love for Peggy as a huge and defining aspect of the story after several movies of him moving on.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:11:45 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142778: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:11:31 PM

Especially given that Endgame is the same movie that brought back, say, Steve's obsession with Peggy after several movies of him moving on.

Yeah and that was stupid too tbh.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142779: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:12:05 PM

This makes me glad that the Guardians game threw a bone to Drax and kept his rivalry with Thanos, even keeping in the connection he has with the Eternal allowing him to track him across the universe.

Even Quill mentions Drax apparently tearing Thanos' heart out which is a reference to when Drax actually did that once.

Drax's vendetta with Thanos is basically his most defining character trait in the comics. It's kind of the big deal of his character: He's a man on a doomed quest to slay Thanos specifically, despite that being practically impossible.

Meanwhile the moment where he did, in fact, fucking kill Thanos at the apex of Annihilation is arguably the most famous moment in his entire character history. Content warning for gore, but this moment, right here, is what defined Drax as a character:

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/drax_kills_thanos.jpg

When you think of Drax, you think of this.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:12:55 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142780: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:12:37 PM

[up] Except I don't think that.

MCU is not the comics.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142781: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:15:06 PM

Yeah and that was stupid too tbh.

So? Is your argument here is that bringing back old but unresolved plot points, in general, is an inherently stupid idea?

What about Tony's obsession with fighting Thanos. That didn't come up in Infinity War (that was more concerned with accountability). Is it coming back in Infinity War "stupid" because it hadn't been a thing in several movies by that point?

Or in short, you're missing the point again. Steve being in love with Peggy against wasn't bad because bringing the plot point back was bad. It was bad because it was written badly and didn't line up with the actual development Steve had in the meantime. Execution, not concept.

And moreoever, I specifically brought it up because the argument I was noting it against was "Drax didn't progress his character arc in the second Guardians movie, so the Russo's had to drop it." This is an entirely different argument than "the plotline was bad," and the point was that we have demonstrable proof that the Russos, indeed, would continue older character arcs if they wanted to. It goes back to my overall point that the Russos didn't marginalize the Guardians because they had to for the story, but because they wanted to.

MCU is not the comics.

In this case, it kind of is. The MCU explicitly brought in Drax's vendetta against Thanos as a defining character trait again. Which gave them the narrative obligation to conclude that somehow - something they ultimately chose not to do.

And, tbh, it's not like Endgame didn't drop lots of important character arcs. Endgame retroactively made a lot of MCU movies worse in order to make itself better. I know there's been rants on here in the past about how Banner's arc is all over the place because they didn't want to follow up with what they did in Infinity War.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:23:34 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142782: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:16:39 PM

People were expecting something badass even a little bit.

But alas Drax got left out.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:17:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142783: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:17:11 PM

You're right, MCU is not the comics. In the MCU, the Avengers aren't just one particular team with a given roster running around in parallel to all the other super-teams.

"Avengers" movies are what, in the comics, would be considered to be a Crossover Event. They're massive, sprawling films bringing together every significant character for a major event that incorporates and impacts all of their separate plotlines, used to tie together the existing solo films and redefine the status quo for the next phase of Marvel movies.

They're not supposed to be about prioritizing certain characters over others because those others "aren't Avengers".

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:17:43 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142784: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:24:16 PM

So your argument here is that bringing back plot points, in general, is an inherently stupid idea?

No, that was not my argument in the slightest. (also that was watchtower's argument in the quote not mine and that's probably not what they meant either)

My argument is that Gunn himself set Drax up as a secondary character and as comic relief who was never going to have a shot at Thanos and I think that would be clear to Gunn when writing Got G originally.

That's not on just the Russos. They didn't derail Drax or short change Drax, they just gave him the same amount of consideration he was already getting.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#142785: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:32:07 PM

[up]So, the argument here is..."Don't blame the Russos, blame Gunn, even though the Russos were the ones writing the movies and could, ya know, change direction, rerail things?"

This is kinda just shifting the blame here more than a solid argument.

Edited by fredhot16 on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:33:17 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142786: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:32:52 PM

My argument is that Gunn himself set Drax up as a secondary character and as comic relief who was never going to have a shot at Thanos

Gunn's movies explicitly set up Drax as hunting down Thanos to take his revenge, so the emphasized part of this post is demonstrably untrue.

As I explained, Thanos not being relevant to the second movie is not, in any way, evidence that Gunn intended for the characters' relationships with Thanos to no longer be relevant. You're attributing your own opinions to Gunn at this point.

There's also a point that should've been noted earlier as well that character being comic relief doesn't mean they or their personal stake in the movie doesn't matter. See also: how the Russo's wrote Peter Parker. Under the Russo's pen, Peter was nothing but comic relief with the exception of one moment, which became a significant character moment. Once he came back, they went right back to playing him as comic relief.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:35:46 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142787: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:34:26 PM

You're right, MCU is not the comics. In the MCU, the Avengers aren't just one particular team with a given roster running around in parallel to all the other super-teams.

"Avengers" movies are what, in the comics, would be considered to be a Crossover Event. They're massive, sprawling films bringing together every significant character for a major event that incorporates and impacts all of their separate plotlines, used to tie together the existing solo films and redefine the status quo for the next phase of Marvel movies.

They're not supposed to be about prioritizing certain characters over others because those others "aren't Avengers".

The Avengers - Was All About The Avengers.

Avengers: Age Of Ultron - Was all about the Avengers. The only new characters introduced in the phase were the Guardians who were a no show.

The only place this can come up are Infinity War and Endgame, and clearly the main characters there are the Avengers. Especially in Endgame. No one ever promised non-Avengers equal screen time. That's just your idea of what should have happened.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142788: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:37:31 PM

Gunn's movies explicitly set up Drax as hunting down Thanos to take his revenge, so the emphasized part of this post is demonstrably untrue.

Drax got his arse handed to him by Ronan. He never had a realistic shot at Thanos and you conveniently cut out the rest of my point. Gunn knew Thanos was set up in Avengers 1 and was the big bad for the whole series. Even if he did set up Drax to take vengeance on Thanos he must have known that wasn't on the cards for the franchise.

If he sets up something that he knows won't happen that's on him.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142789: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:37:55 PM

Granted I have to agree that Gunn at the very least shares the blame for making Drax the comedic relief.

Honestly Drax mentioning going after Thanos at the end of Guardians 1 comes across more as a hollow attempt at an author’s saving moment for changing his backstory to focus on Ronan.

Drax’s thing with the guy who actually killed his family wasn’t taken that much seriously.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142790: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:38:02 PM

There is definitely a case to be made that every Avengers film (and Civil War) minus Ultron is simply a crossover of all the different MCU properties that can be fit into the story at the time, all together as both a marketing and a storytelling tool.

This is why in Endgame, the big "Avengers Assemble" moment is everybody. In the MCU, the Avengers in general sense is defined as "anyone who is present," and the big franchise function of the Avengers film is to include as much of the universe as possible for hype purposes.

Ultron is the only exception to this, which - as it is an exception - says more about Ultron than it does about the rest of the Avengers films. IIRC, there was criticism levied at the film about it, which may explain why they hard shifted away from that in the subsequent films.

Drax got his arse handed to him by Ronan. He never had a realistic shot at Thanos and you conveniently cut out the rest of my point

No, I definitely acknowledged and responded to this point every time you brought it up.

But to give a new response to it: Power Levels isn't really something that exists in superhero media, and the MCU is no exception. Having issues fighting Ronan is in no way Gunn explicitly noting that Drax could never be involved in fighting Thanos, especially sicne the next movie had the Guardians all together fight a guy way stronger than Ronan.

Hell, Ant-Man 3 is about to have Scott - a guy who just barely eked out a win against Falcon - fight Kang the Conqueror. Endgame cultivated a way for Captain America to fistfight Thanos. If a writer wants a superhero to do a super thing in a superhero story, that's what will happen and they'll just explain it when it happens. There's a good quote from Stan Lee on the subject.

Again, work of fiction. Not real life. "Realistically" doesn't apply here.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:44:16 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#142791: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:43:49 PM

> a guy who just barely eked out a win against Falcon - fight Kang the Conqueror.

Why am I suddenly picturing Scot punch Kang at ant size?

"That's funny,it feels like an ant is trying to attack me?"

Also insert joke about Giant Man fighting Kang

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142792: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:45:31 PM

I'm hoping this happens, tbh:

I'm so disappointed Ant-Man hasn't punted anybody in the MCU yet.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#142793: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:47:52 PM

Wow, a lot of messages way too fast too address...

One thing I will say, in favor of the GOTG portrayal in Infinity Wars, is that unlike literally everyone else, when it came down to it, they were willing to actually sacrifice someone else instead of letting Thanos get a stone.

Well, Peter was, and Gamora was willing to sacrifice herself. Personally, I think the person who got done dirtiest wasn't Peter and his fury, but Gamora. And not for being tossed off a cliff, but for giving up the soul stone's location rather than being willing to do exactly what she asked Peter to do and sacrifice someone else rather than give Thanos what he needed. That was some bullshit. It gets lost in the sea of people doing stupid shit rather than sacrifice one life, but that one is even crazier than the rest given her and Nebula's personal experience with Thanos.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142794: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:51:45 PM

True. The primary reason I've been using Drax as an example of what the films did with the Guardians instead of Gamora is because once we get into Gamora we would also necessarily get into the huge topic of fridging as well, but... yeah.

Gamora's whole character got screwed for other characters' pain, which sucks.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142795: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:54:13 PM

There is definitely a case to be made that every Avengers film (and Civil War) minus Ultron is simply a crossover of all the different MCU properties that can be fit into the story at the time, all together as both a marketing and a storytelling tool.
That's still just your assumption on what things should be like. No one ever promised that the Guardians would get equal screen time compared to the Avengers, in the Avengers own film.

Endgame is the swansong for the Original Six Avengers. this is blatantly clear in how it's set up. That's why most of the people who confront Thanos in the final fight of Endgame are full on Avengers. (Cap, Thor, Iron Man and Wanda, Carol is the exception.)

But to give a new response to it: Power Levels isn't really something that exists in superhero media, and the MCU is no exception. Having issues fighting Ronan is in no way Gunn explicitly noting that Drax could never be involved in fighting Thanos, especially sicne the next movie had the Guardians all together fight a guy way stronger than Ronan.
And that's a fight Drax makes literally zero impact on that I recall and is solved with spaceships and bombs. Drax has as much impact on the final fight of Endgame than he does GoTG2.

My point is not "power levels" but yes they and realism count, you can play with them but if you make it too lopsided then people's suspension of disbelief will break. Batman Vs Superman as an example no one would believe bats winning that fistfight, so they have to try an even the odds with power armour or red sun rays or kryptonite or whatever.

The point I think you've not addressed sufficiently is that Gunn would have known he wasn't going to be doing to final confrontation with Thanos and he'd have known resolving Drax's arc wasn't going to a priority. Heck, I don't think it's a priority with him.


Eta: Right. I'm switching off. Apologies to anyone I've not responded to or addressed.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 6th 2022 at 11:54:55 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142796: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:59:45 PM

okay one last point.

Fridging Gamora was absolutely shitty. Especially when they then did the same thing to Natasha in Endgame

Otoh, her actions in IW do strike me as the endpoint of her character development in Got G Vol 2 coming to care for Peter and Nebula as a sister.

The idea that heroes won't make the cold pragmatic choice is like the whole theme of Infinity War. Whether you agree or not with that is a matter of opinion but I like it. Heroes should be well... heroic. Idealistic. You can sacrifice yourself but not others.

Of course they lose because of it, so what the film is actually trying to say about it kind of eludes me.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#142797: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:02:26 PM

You're right, MCU is not the comics. In the MCU, the Avengers aren't just one particular team with a given roster running around in parallel to all the other super-teams.

"Avengers" movies are what, in the comics, would be considered to be a Crossover Event. They're massive, sprawling films bringing together every significant character for a major event that incorporates and impacts all of their separate plotlines, used to tie together the existing solo films and redefine the status quo for the next phase of Marvel movies.

They're not supposed to be about prioritizing certain characters over others because those others "aren't Avengers".

I get what you're saying but you have to respect how novel this kind of storytelling is for movies. Movie-makers and movie-watchers aren't used to having less of a cast and more of a roster of available characters in the midst of an MMO event. Far smaller movies still make sure to have 1-3 main protagonists to tie everything around. One of Infinity War's tricks to making its narrative work is making Thanos its Villain Protagonist.

There's a "conservation of narrative ninjutsu" at work and there's just not enough for Drax to get any that late in the game. His one thing is that he wants to kill Thanos in a narrative where by Endgame practically everyone wants to kill Thanos. There's no real reason to ensure that Drax is the one to end Thanos other than obligation to comic book fans because that's how it worked in the comics, right?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142798: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:03:51 PM

That's still just your assumption on what things should be like.

To be blunt, at this stage in the conversation it's a little rude and fairly hypocritical of you to be dismissing other people's takes on way franchise is run as "just assumptions," given how thoroughly people have observed how much your side of this sounds an awful lot like you projecting your opinion on the Guardians' worth onto the films.

Especially given that these are posts about observations on how the franchise has been run on a narrative and marketing level. You going "nope, just assumptions, I'm the only one who's right" is - at the very least - tone deaf. At the worst, it's caustic.

I'm not really trying to make a case of this, but I'm just cautioning you to cool it.

Batman Vs Superman as an example no one would believe bats winning that fistfight, so they have to try an even the odds with power armour or red sun rays or kryptonite or whatever.

Considering that World's Finest and Justice League: Doom are also films that approach the question of "how are Batman and his villains able to challenge Superman" and both were well received and cult classics, its pretty obvious "Batman is able to hurt Superman" isn't actually the issue with Batman V Superman.

As always, execution. Not concept.

Otoh, her actions in IW do strike me as the endpoint of her character development in Got G Vol 2 coming to care for Peter and Nebula as a sister.

The idea that heroes won't make the cold pragmatic choice is like the whole theme of Infinity War.

Buh? Gamora didn't choose to sacrifice herself. Thanos murdered her, while claiming it was an act of love.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 4:10:18 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142799: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:07:18 PM

[up][up] It prolly helps Comic Drax’s case is that when he actually did kill Thanos it was in a story where the main conflict was not about killing Thanos.

Annihilation centered on Annihilus basically waging war on the entire universe and thus forcing multitudes of cosmic related characters to get involved, Thanos was one of those characters involved.

There was several plot threads to go around for the large cast and Drax managed to get the thread of finishing off Thanos while Nova finished off Annihilus by tearing out his intestines.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 6th 2022 at 4:09:14 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142800: Jun 6th 2022 at 4:07:54 PM

Wow, a lot of messages way too fast too address...

One thing I will say, in favor of the GOTG portrayal in Infinity Wars, is that unlike literally everyone else, when it came down to it, they were willing to actually sacrifice someone else instead of letting Thanos get a stone.

Well, Peter was, and Gamora was willing to sacrifice herself. Personally, I think the person who got done dirtiest wasn't Peter and his fury, but Gamora. And not for being tossed off a cliff, but for giving up the soul stone's location rather than being willing to do exactly what she asked Peter to do and sacrifice someone else rather than give Thanos what he needed. That was some bullshit. It gets lost in the sea of people doing stupid shit rather than sacrifice one life, but that one is even crazier than the rest given her and Nebula's personal experience with Thanos.

Oh wow. I didn't even consider that.

In the end, Quill was the only one who didn't just talk the talk in regards to sacrificing someone else, but walked the walk. Like, I've always said that when the time came to pull the trigger, he did it, even though it was clearly destroying him to do so. Even Thanos seemed impressed that Quill actually went through with it.

Like, I bet he never even expected to see those bubbles. He figured Quill would fold at the last second. Imagine if he'd been more willing to assume Quill would never pull the trigger and didn't even bother doing some kind of counter? When I think that Thanos' quest could have ended right then and there if he'd been just a bit more confident in himself....ooof.

Edit: Well, ok, he was one of the people willing to sacrifice others. Strange basically sacrificed half the universe, and then Tony (and accidentally Natasha) in order to undo the snap, and Vision was more than willing to sacrifice himself as soon as possible, he just physically wasn't able to.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jun 6th 2022 at 4:09:25 AM

One Strip! One Strip!

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