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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142751: Jun 6th 2022 at 1:47:12 PM

And I could imagine him being a bit salty about it: if there's one thing I feel the Russo's did poorly with Endgame / Infinity War, it's the Guardians. I get the impression that the Russo's didn't take the group very seriously, and also only really had interest in using Nebula and to a lesser extent Rocket, so they retooled.

While I'll defend Starlord screwing up their fight against Thanos (I do like that it's the exact same mistake Tony made at the end of Civil War, and the touch that Tony was the first person to realize what was about to happen) in a vacuum, the fact it's surrounded by "lol, he's an idiot that nobody takes seriously" jokes is a shame. But it's really the rest of the Guardians that suffer the most. Drax doesn't get his revenge against Thanos. Gamora's mostly just there for manpain. And even Rocket spends two movies mostly just being Thor's emotional support racoon. In the final battle, we get one shot of Rocket hiding with Groot under a rock or something and that's it.

Heck, there as a deleted scene about how the Guardians were literally too stupid to fly their own spaceship.

Nebula's treated really, really well, though. You can tell who the Russos were actually interested in using. But yeah, there's a lot of baggage the Russos stuck Gunn with regards to the Guardians, not the least of which that he now has to decide whether to lean into the "lol Starlord is an idiot surrounded by idiots who doomed the universe" memes the characters are now stuck with or ignore it and continue to write the characters as he had previously been writing them.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#142752: Jun 6th 2022 at 1:55:13 PM

Don't forget Gamora being temporally rebooted as a character after all that time Gunn spent developing her.

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NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#142753: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:02:41 PM

Remember, Starlord was more than fine with the universe being destroyed until he found out Ego killed his mom.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#142754: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:05:44 PM

I interpreted that as more being entranced until Ego said what could be seen as the one thing that could break through the haze.

I suppose the issue with the Guardians in Infinity War is...well, they've already been given some pretty important connections to the Thanos plot, so you can't not use them. My suggestion would have been to give them a few comedic scenes, but not be afraid to make them more serious than normal...but that wasn't really where they took them.

Oh God! Natural light!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#142755: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:06:39 PM

I think Ego was brainwashing him, it was more that he didn't break out of it until Ego mentioned that.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142756: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:09:15 PM

Character exaggerations am I right?

The Guardians were always dim assholes but the Infinity Duo certainly upped it a little. [lol]

Though admitably that is on the Guardians films for making them that way.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142757: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:12:18 PM

Yeah, I'm chalking that up to Ego brainwashing him given that Peter had clear Mind-Control Eyes during the whole thing until he snaps out of it.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#142758: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:26:42 PM

In said scene his first instinct upon learning that Ego killed his mom was to unload his blasters and pump him full of plasma. So y'know Star-Lord freaking out at Thanos ain't exactly OOC at least to me. >_>

Also Drax definitely got wasted by 1) MCU Drax is like tenth in line for people with a bone to pick with Thanos and 2) Gunn didn't exactly help showing him having absolutely nothing else to do once Ronan dies. Like even just within GotG2 itself Drax's "Thanos is next" line goes completely nowhere and the movie instead tries this semi-buddy semi-romantic thing with him and Mantis that even just in that movie is clearly going nowhere.

Fair points on a lot of other things including with Gamora. Apparently Gunn said somewhere that he hasn't changed his script for GotG3 since Disney got trolled into dumping him which has lead to this big fan theory that the Holiday Special is secretly Gunn rejiggering the status quo back to the place he wanted it at for it. Which if all is true certainly says quite a bit.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142759: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:34:16 PM

It's not like Gamora is that well developed anyway. The stuff that was developed for her, her relationship with Nebula is absolutely pivotal to Infinity War. Everyone was pretty much in character other than Starlord being even more of a butt monkey than usual.

Was anyone really expecting Drax to kill Thanos in an Avengers movie? Or a Guardians movie for that matter.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142760: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:39:14 PM

It's not like Gamora is that well developed anyway. The stuff that was developed for her, her relationship with Nebula is absolutely pivotal to Infinity War.

That the Russo's specifically rewrote her such that she had no importance beyond her relationship with Nebula, Thanos and (to a lesser extent) Starlord is the problem, yes.

Gunn's handling of the character wasn't perfect or even always especially mature, but he did at least try to develop her as a character escaping from others' control and coming into her own as a person. It's definitely a noticeable waste of a character arc for her to be turned into a lamp for other characters to then emote over.

Was anyone really expecting Drax to kill Thanos in an Avengers movie? Or a Guardians movie for that matter.

You don't have to literally be the one to kill a person to have a part in a character's defeat, especially given that the issue here is closure of the character's character arc.

Consider that Cap's big fight against Thanos isn't meaningless nor inconsequential to his character just because it's actually Tony who defeated him, nor is it only Tony's character development surroudning Thanos that matters just because he did the deed.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 2:43:03 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142761: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:39:52 PM

I feel like out of all the Guardians Drax really was wasted the most.

Like when people complain about nerfed characters, Drax out of everyone here fits the bill perfectly with all his traits and strengths diluted to the point where he is nothing more than a big funny guy who occasionally angsts about his dead family.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142762: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:41:22 PM

Drax is a secondary character in a secondary team.

I mean I get he's short changed compared to the comics version but... what were people expecting him to do?

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 6th 2022 at 10:41:42 AM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#142763: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:42:22 PM

In some ways it's a nearly unavoidable side-effect of these massive crossovers that some characters are going to get shafted. There simply isn't time for everyone to get their chances to shine and the Guardians were the biggest victims of this, though some creative choices were simply ill-conceived.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#142764: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:42:58 PM

Dibs on defeating the villain can often be messy and complicated in media. Tony Stark vs. Thanos had been a significant undercurrent of the Myth Arc since Avengers 1, despite the characters only vaguely being aware of the idea of each other until Infinity War. So it's not hard to see why the film gave Tony priority over everyone else.

But it does feel like that priority comes at a cost to Drax, Gamora, and Nebula, all of whom had a much more direct connection with Thanos as a personal nemesis.

So it can come across feeling like making a symbiote invasion movie, in which Venom leads an army of symbiotes to conquer the Earth and all of the established Marvel heroes have to come together and fight him - culminating in a finale where War Machine dukes it out with Venom while Spidey's off fighting some mooks somewhere.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142765: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:44:22 PM

Drax is a secondary character in a secondary team.

Being a secondary character isn't an inherent character trait. Writers choose to turn characters into secondary characters - in this case, turn the Guardians from major characters of their own story to minor characters of the big crossover.

It's not as if that was something the Russo were forced to do. There's no inherent quality of MCU Drax that mean he (and the other Guardians) had to have their stake written out of the story. They chose to do that. You can't really remove the Russos from that sudden skew in character direction.

And Drax is just one example, such that zeroing in on him. As [up] pointed out, we also have other characters attached to that arc like Gamora or Nebula who get shafted (or Fridged -> Goldfished, in Gamora's case) in the story as well.

Again, this is relevant:

Consider that Cap's big fight against Thanos isn't meaningless nor inconsequential to his character just because it's actually Tony who defeated him, nor is it only Tony's character development surroudning Thanos that matters just because he did the deed.

You don't have to be the big hero to have relevant character progression and presence. You don't even necessarily have to have a lot of screentime. But presence, and mindfulness of what the character is about is required.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 2:51:29 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142766: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:51:00 PM

Being a secondary character isn't an inherent character trait. Writers choose to turn characters into secondary characters - in this case, turn the Guardians from major characters of their own story to minor characters of the Avengers' films.

It's not as if that isn't something the Russo's specifically chose to do.

No shit. The Avengers are the central protagonists of the MCU. Thanos was introduced in Avengers as their greater scope villain.

The Russos didn't specifically chose that it was set up long before the entered the scene and was probably dictated by Feige/The Story Group.

Even then there's no way I can look at Drax's role in either Guardian film and think 'well his quest to kill thanos is a realistic ambition he's sure to fulfill'. It's not like he was totally overmatch and humiliated by a lesser opponent who was the one who actually killed his family.

Drax making a significant impact on Thanos was never on the cards.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142767: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:55:02 PM

Even then there's no way I can look at Drax's role in either Guardian film and think 'well his quest to kill thanos is a realistic ambition he's sure to fulfill'. It's not like he was totally overmatch and humiliated by a lesser opponent who was the one who actually killed his family.

That's irrelevant. It's a character arc, not a real life pipe dream. It doesn't matter if he can realistically do it. It matters if that arc receives closure.

No shit. The Avengers are the central protagonists of the MCU. Thanos was introduced in Avengers as their greater scope villain.

And then developed in Guardians, along with the characters who had personal connection to him and a scope of what the character was about and how he affected the galaxy and the people within it.

It's not as if the character appeared at the end of Avengers, and then popped into Infinity War with no other appearances or relevant story involved. There is, after all, significantly more content in the MCU than just the Avengers films.

Drax making a significant impact on Thanos was never on the cards.

That's seems unlikely, given that Endgame allows for Ant-Man, whose story had jack all to do with Thanos, to have a significant impact in defeating Thanos.

This is because there's no such thing as inherent irrelevance to the plot. As I said before, you keep trying to sell this idea that the Guardians were inherently less worthwhile characters who were utterly incapable of having an importnat.

But storytelling doesn't work that way. Hell, the Russo's story doesn't work that way. They put lots of disparate characters from across the MCU in relevant and significant roles in Infinity War and Endgame. Again, they weren't force do not do so with the Guardians. They chose not to do so with the Guardians.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 2:57:31 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142768: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:57:13 PM

It is extremely relevant.

Seriously, no one has answered the question: What did you want Drax to do in these films? What would have been sufficient closure in the arc for you that would still fit into it being an Avengers film?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142769: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:58:07 PM

Seriously, no one has answered the question: What did you want Drax to do in these films?

Have his vendetta against Thanos acknowledged, and important to the final battle. Have him be part of one of the big, fateful charges in the same vein as the womens' charge. Have him interact with the other characters in meaningful ways during the push to stop Thanos. Etc. It's mentioned repeatedly to you that this doesn't take an awful lot to do. There's all sorts of ways that character arc could've been acknowledged.

If you keep thinking someone's going to reply to you with "Drax should've been the real hero of the story!", well, that's not going to happen. That's not what anyone is saying, and trying to force it is missing the point.

It is extremely relevant.

Because?

Again, this is a work of fiction, not reality. "In real life, this character would've instantly destroyed him the moment he tried to fight back" doesn't really matter.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:00:44 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#142770: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:58:41 PM

Even then there's no way I can look at Drax's role in either Guardian film and think 'well his quest to kill thanos is a realistic ambition he's sure to fulfill'. It's not like he was totally overmatch and humiliated by a lesser opponent who was the one who actually killed his family.

Drax making a significant impact on Thanos was never on the cards.

Sure. And Thanos could manhandle the Hulk without even using the Infinity Gems, so there was never any realistic possibility that Tony Stark could, in a million years and by any means, defeat him and save the universe.

What you're describing is called being an underdog. This is not a fucking Versus Debate. In storytelling, heroes are usually outmatched by villains until they find a desperate means to win the day. Those twists and turns are what make the story interesting.

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dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142771: Jun 6th 2022 at 2:59:49 PM

Have his vendetta against Thanos acknowledged

It was. Literally that what happens on Knowhere! Drax tries to kill Thanos and wrecks the Guardian's "plan" (for lack of a better word).

eta: added quoteblock since some replies came in while i was writing.

Edited by dcutter2 on Jun 6th 2022 at 11:03:25 AM

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142772: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:01:21 PM

Seriously if you could stop editting lots of extra stuff into your comment after I've replied to them. That would be fucking great.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#142773: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:02:29 PM

Drax being given a nod before the story even really starts, after which he's written out of the story and not given a legitimate part of taking Thanos down, is not really the same thing. Especially given that there are two movies being discussed here, not one.

Closure doesn't come at the beginning of the story. And I'm not really sure how "Drax appears on the scene and is instantly destroyed" would've counted as such anyway. It's clear that wasn't the intention behind the scene being written (it was establishment that Thanos was getting too strong for any of the grounds to fight alone).

Seriously if you could stop editting lots of extra stuff into your comment after I've replied to them. That would be fucking great.

No. I have no way of reasonably knowing when you will reply (like, my last edit finished literally less than a second after your next post), and I prefer to edit my posts to more strongly make their points rather than fill the forum up with new posts if I can help it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 6th 2022 at 3:08:06 AM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#142774: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:07:00 PM

I would absolutely say Drax's problem is being a secondary character in a secondary team. He's so back in line by Endgame in terms of "vendettas against Thanos" that he doesn't even have a spot in the same room. You have a pick-two between Star-Lord, Gamora, Nebula, and Rocket before him.

The Russos didn't drop the ball, the ball was missing before they even got there. Drax at the end of GotG2 had already been Flanderized into a big dumb brute who cracks dumb jokes - the Russos simply left him there instead of spending the time that'd be needed to do a proper Character Rerailment.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142775: Jun 6th 2022 at 3:07:44 PM

This makes me glad that the Guardians game threw a bone to Drax and kept his rivalry with Thanos, even keeping in the connection he has with the Eternal allowing him to track him across the universe.

Even Quill mentions Drax apparently tearing Thanos' heart out which is a reference to when Drax actually did that once.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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