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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#142601: May 30th 2022 at 3:51:55 AM

[up]And would introduce Caiera to set up Skaar and Hiro-Kala.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142602: May 30th 2022 at 3:56:41 AM

No, the rights issues didn't affect animation. Fox only held the live-action film rights. Notably, Wolverine was a major character for at least one of those movies.

This is true but it did lead to Fantastic Four and X-Men characters being demphasised even in projects they could be used in. Cartoons, Video Games, even the comics tried to push the Inhumans over X-Men, so as not to advertised live action movie made by other companies.

Wolverine is just so famous and popular he's usually an exception.

Swapping out an FF character for a Thor one makes "sense" from that point of view.

Edited by dcutter2 on May 30th 2022 at 12:10:02 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142603: May 30th 2022 at 3:59:41 AM

I'm not sure that would work, a prequel wouldn't have the same effect as by its nature Hulk can't lead the revolution to defeat the tyrant and become the hero. It would just be stuck on the first third of the story without being able to progress past that.

Huh on further thought, its a shame we never saw the Grandmaster gutted like a fish. At least with the Red King we get an actual confrontation with him and he gets a suitably horrific fate for all his atrocities (he gets infected by the spikes, and immolated alive by his robot guards).

Meanwhile the Grandmaster is all quirky and funny so Hulk and Thor can't just smash him into chunky salsa in the end.

[up] Bill is a cosmic character like Surfer so it is pretty thematically appropriate a switch.

Edited by slimcoder on May 30th 2022 at 4:04:57 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142604: May 30th 2022 at 6:01:28 AM

I figure the switch was so that Bill could be introduced during Korg’s backstory instead of having to introduce a completely separate guy

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142605: May 30th 2022 at 12:20:20 PM

Probably. The film came out in 2010. The MCU was still an unproven pipe dream when it was being produced. The big push to de-emphasize mutants wouldn't start until years later, and barely affected characters on the Fantastic Four side of things.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#142606: May 30th 2022 at 4:42:46 PM

If you could fix a single life in the MCU with no loopholes to take advantage of, who would it be?

  • Peter Parker?
  • Thor?
  • Dr. Strange?
  • Frank Castle?
  • Natasha Romanoff?
  • Wanda Maximoff?
  • or maybe someone else?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#142607: May 30th 2022 at 4:44:31 PM

Thanos, just for the butterfly effect.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142608: May 30th 2022 at 11:07:14 PM

Thinking about it, it says a lot about a character depending how they react to meeting another character.

Like when Bill meets Hulk he sounds almost in awe, indicating that he is so legendary that even the Gods speak of him. You can tell Bill respects him even though Hulk's tales are probably not particularly positive.

On the far end of that you have the Guardians, most prominently shown in the Guardians game where they react to anyone new with derision and mocking. When the subject of Darkhawk came they care more about making fun of his name and not mentioning his association with the Fraternity of Raptors a group of infamous space pirates in power armor. Or when they first hear the Avengers name and Quill's immediate reaction is to make fun of the name.

Its fun to think about.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#142609: May 31st 2022 at 2:52:08 AM

Does anyone else find Phase 4's fixation on the multiverse pretty hilarious after the whole point of Far From Home was that it was utterly ridiculous bullshit concept Mysterio spun to prove how gullible everyone was?

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#142610: May 31st 2022 at 6:01:19 AM

[up][up][up] We kind of already saw that in Episode 2 of What If...

In regards to whose life I'd fix, I'd want to fix the Pym-Van Dyne family, in the hopes that Hank gets to live a happier life with his wife and daughter, even if it's at the expense of never meeting Scott.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#142611: May 31st 2022 at 6:50:16 AM

[up][up] Not really. The utterly ridiculous part was the Elementals being an Earth-destroying threat when they're just monsters that he solos with no issue. The multiverse part of his story was pretty believable.

Although I do hate the 616 retcon. It was a cute nod to the fans that Beck was lying since he gave the wrong universe number. Now he just happened to randomly guess the correct number out of infinite possibilities. I understand ditching 199999 because that number sucks, but you coulda picked anything else.

regulation pigeon
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#142612: May 31st 2022 at 7:23:01 AM

They had to use 616 though. 616 has been codified for ever as Marvel's "main" Earth and it just doesn't make sense to not use it for the MCU's "main" Earth when it finally got to that point. If anything the implication that the MCU calls itself Earth-616 because Strange swiped it from another Earth and just rolled with it is kinda funny in its own way.

As for contrivences....eh, these things aren't nearly as planned out as people like to hype them up as and these kind of things will happen because of that. One of those things you gotta roll with or you get caught up in things like Endgame outright calling out half the Infinity Stones being in New York at the same time, lol.

Edited by Watchtower on May 31st 2022 at 10:23:27 AM

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#142613: May 31st 2022 at 8:39:58 AM

[up]By that logic every continuity would have to be set on Earth 616, because every story is set in its own "main universe". And 616 isn't supposed be a signifier of importance, it's a deliberately unspecial number meant to imply that the universe of the main comic book continuity is just one place in the vast multiverse and has no more cosmically ingrained significance than any other world.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142614: May 31st 2022 at 9:29:48 AM

The significance of the number is debatable. Alan Moore and Dave Thorpe have both been independently credited with the creation of the number. Supposedly, Moore picked it at random because he thought it was stupid that DC numbers its main universe as "Earth-1" and then counts up from there. So he just pulled a three-digit number out of his ass since that seemed more realistic.

However, the number 616 isn't a random, meaningless number. It's the Number of the Beast, bearing great significance in Christian mythology. Or, one of; Theologists argue whether 616 or 666 is the Number of the Beast. But that's a weird number to have just made up at random.

According to the Dave Thorpe credit, 616 being the Number of the Beast was the intention. Supposedly, Thorpe didn't like writing superhero comics, so when he came up with the Marvel Universe's designation, he assigned it the Number of the Beast out of spite. And then it just stuck.

So Earth-616 is either a completely arbitrary number that means absolutely nothing, or it's a signifier of how much one writer despised working for Marvel.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 31st 2022 at 9:30:22 AM

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Joshbones Since: May, 2015
#142615: May 31st 2022 at 9:54:09 AM

[up][up]Every continuity has its own numbering system, yes. That's been made clear a lot of times. Even the spider-verse comic used different numbers for the same universe a lot of times.

The issue really seems to be that people want a movie franchise to be beholden to a guidebook they had no input in making.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#142616: May 31st 2022 at 10:06:26 AM

[up][up]I actually thought 616 came from the Fantastic Four's debut in June 1961.

Personally, if I were to simplify the MCU's designation, I'd call it Earth-528, for Iron Man 1's release on May 2, 2008.

Edited by lbssb on May 31st 2022 at 10:09:44 AM

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JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#142617: May 31st 2022 at 10:09:52 AM

As I said before, for narrative purposes, the adaptations are a different multiverse, so there is no problem that both are called 616.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142618: May 31st 2022 at 10:26:53 AM

It’s funny that a number that was maybe a sweet dunk on marvel and DC caught on with readers

Marvel tried to change it to universe 8 after secret wars modern but nobody liked it, not even many of the writers

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JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#142619: May 31st 2022 at 10:41:18 AM

It always seemed to me that 616 was to show that the main universe, in the grand scheme of things, was not special, it was not among the first, but it was not among the last either, it was just one more.

That is, out-universe, 616 is special, because is the "main", but in-universe, 616 is just one universe of many.

Unlike DC, in which the land of the protagonists was literally "land 1"

Edited by JoLuRo075 on May 31st 2022 at 10:44:24 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#142620: May 31st 2022 at 10:49:44 AM

Supposedly, Moore picked it at random because he thought it was stupid that DC numbers its main universe as "Earth-1" and then counts up from there. So he just pulled a three-digit number out of his ass since that seemed more realistic.

However, the number 616 isn't a random, meaningless number. It's the Number of the Beast, bearing great significance in Christian mythology. […] That’s a weird number to have just made up at random.

Honestly if any person would think of the Number of the Beast first when asked to pick a random number, it’d be Moore. tongue

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#142621: May 31st 2022 at 11:18:38 AM

[up][up] Yeah, Earth-616's significance comes from the fact that it is... basically the protagonist of Marvel universes. Not in-story the single most important world in the multiverse, but the one that the story has always been about and therefore the one that we all care about.

And reusing the 616 designation to signify the main world of other continuities is like if you wrote a successful story with a protagonist named Jerry and then you made a spin-off of that story and declared that the new protagonist also had to be called Jerry because Jerry is what main characters are called in this franchise.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142622: May 31st 2022 at 11:20:52 AM

Adaptation, not spinoff. It's like if you filmed a feature-film adaptation of the successful story you wrote, and then insisted that the main character of the movie has to be named Jerry because the guy in the story was called Jerry.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#142623: May 31st 2022 at 11:39:18 AM

Therein lies the problem. Under the multiversal framework established by Marvel nothing is actually an adaptation, but a spin-off. The Marvel Multiverse (much like its predecessor DC multiverse) is essentially a very unique, metafictional concept that stretches the maximum of superhero comics to a quantum mechanics level: everything is true. Everything's a spin-off of the Marvel Universe, including all the fanfics people have, including the objective reality we're living in now reading superhero comics.

It's a very fun, very rich concept (Grant Morrison's entire illustrous cape comic career was essentially playing with it in various ways), but it only works if you adhere to the premise, so having multiple "earth-616" running around breaks the spell a lot. However, the multiverse has a way of correcting itself (it's one of the reasons that the concept gets so much mileage) so I think it's only a matter of time before some comic book writer explains that there are multiple multiverses and thus multiple 616 verses in some storyline that will probably involve a clash of 616 verses.

Edited by Gaon on May 31st 2022 at 11:39:37 AM

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Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#142624: May 31st 2022 at 11:44:21 AM

It’ll get “corrected” with the comics and movies the same way Agents of SHIELD swerved to fit in with the MCU films while the movies didn’t even remember they existed. tongue

BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#142625: May 31st 2022 at 11:49:36 AM

There was a pre-existing convention to give adaptations their own universe numbers. And since the universe numbers are a way of distinguishing when you have different variations on the same character, that was helpful. Spider-Man 1, The Amazing Spider Man, and Spider-Man: Homecoming, are all adaptations of Earth 616's Spider-Man, but if you were to declare that that means each of them is set on their own Earth 616 then when the Spider-Men meet in No Way Home we've got a bunch of variants of the same guy who all have the same multiverse number.


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