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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142251: May 15th 2022 at 8:08:20 PM

It is Hickman, he is a very high concept writer with a flair for esoteric sci-fi epics.

His Avengers did become the tough act to follow for Avengers runs afterwards which is still in effect presently with the Jason Aaron run.

Edited by slimcoder on May 15th 2022 at 8:17:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#142252: May 16th 2022 at 10:16:45 AM

I thought the comics Illuminati was well liked?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142253: May 16th 2022 at 10:41:51 AM

Are they? They seem to only make bad decisions that bite them in the ass

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#142254: May 16th 2022 at 10:47:40 AM

[up]So does Yamcha but he's still got an ineffable fanbase.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#142255: May 16th 2022 at 10:48:52 AM

ineffable you say

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#142256: May 16th 2022 at 10:51:19 AM

I thought the idea behind the Illuminati was that they were supposed to be terrible people who made bad decisions?

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#142257: May 16th 2022 at 10:53:19 AM

[up][up]No, I typed it.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142258: May 16th 2022 at 10:54:39 AM

I guess it’s not what people want from characters like Tony Stark or Professor X or Mr Reed who already have a PR problem

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#142259: May 16th 2022 at 10:54:59 AM

You said it through typing though,so there!

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on May 16th 2022 at 5:55:09 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142260: May 16th 2022 at 10:56:20 AM

Like lazy writers will often write that superheroes cause supervillains which is a shaky argument

But with the Illuminati you can probably argue the world is materially worse because of them

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#142261: May 16th 2022 at 11:05:28 AM

I know there supposed to be written as well-meaning but arrogant superheroes who thought becoming a secret conspiracy for good was a good idea.

I asked of the Illuminati was liked by comic-book readers.

Or it's just Tobias who has an issue with the concept?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142262: May 16th 2022 at 11:16:36 AM

I think Tobias has more of a problem with the multiverse collapsing incursions from Hickman’s New Avengers, which happened to star the Illuminati

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142263: May 16th 2022 at 11:22:55 AM

The idea of the heroes getting together and trading information so that they are better prepared for different threats isn't bad.

But since the most common way to write characters like Reed, Tony, Stephen and Charles is Arrogant idiots who make things worse and never learn it results in...well, in everything that we see throughout the many Illuminati stories.

It might have worked better if they hadn't decided to be secretive about it.

Also, the same stories will be told about them: something happens, and the Illuminati decides to keep it secret because they think they are the only ones who can deal with it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142264: May 16th 2022 at 11:27:25 AM

See, it had to be a secret because its a retcon. And its a retcon because it needs to set up Secret Invasion.

If it wasn't a secret, it probably would have come up before. Because superheroes not communicating is just a super big thing for decades.

Come to think of it, after Secret Wars when Xavier ditched Earth to hang out with his space imperialist girlfriend for medicinal reasons and put Magneto in charge of his academy, none of the other heroes had any idea what happened to Xavier and thought that the X-Men and New Mutants had just flipped bad. You'd think if Xavier and Tony were having secret tea parties to swap shop talk, Xavier could have mentioned he was going to space hospice but I guess not.

So the Illuminati are just entirely useless.

Anyway, it had to be a secret club because it didn't exist during the period when it was founded and active. So since its secret, its the assholes who always keep secrets and decide things on their own keeping secrets and deciding things on their own and since its intended to drive conflict, they make bad decisions which make things worse.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142265: May 16th 2022 at 11:30:43 AM

....

Your post really highlight the circular reasoning behind the entire thing.

One Strip! One Strip!
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#142266: May 16th 2022 at 11:39:55 AM

Definitely got that vibe here too, honestly - given their usual showings in the comics, Wanda going "fuck all you hos" and slaughtering them felt kinda satisfying, assuming that they're anywhere near as shitty as they typically are.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142267: May 16th 2022 at 11:49:04 AM

I think Tobias has more of a problem with the multiverse collapsing incursions from Hickman’s New Avengers, which happened to star the Illuminati

Yeah, the Illuminati were a thing long before Hickman's Incursions. They were first created during Civil War, but retroactively established as having existed prior to that. They were introduced to be sort of Tony's last-ditch effort to try and get the entire superhero community onboard with the Registration Act before its official signing.

It's arguably one of the few times Tony was actually written well during that arc. His position was basically, "This is going to happen whether we like it or not. It has the will of the people behind it, and the politicians will sign it. If we get in front of this thing, we can shape what it becomes in ways that we can live with. But if we don't, then it's out of our hands. Either they do this with us, or they do this to us. Please help me make it the former."

But we all know how that arc turned out.

Another significant development from the original Illuminati miniseries was the reveal that the Illuminati had assembled the Infinity Gems. They didn't trust the Gems to be out in the wild, so they went out and grabbed them for themselves. They split the Gems up among themselves, with each of the six members taking a Gem for safekeeping and guarding it in the way they felt was most suitable.

(Tony kept his in a safe deposit box in, like, bumfuck Arizona! [lol])

That these six guys have the Infinity Gems would be a recurring plot point for a while, until Hickman's arc tied it off by destroying all of the Gems.

The Illuminati were meant to be a well-meaning but arrogant group who ultimately did more harm than good before self-destructing from in-fighting. Ultimately they went their separate ways, never to try and pull this shit again.

Except for all the times they came back together to pull this shit again, because once an idea is established in comics, it is permanent and everlasting.

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#142268: May 16th 2022 at 11:51:38 AM

Unless it's something that "ages" a character like marriage and children.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142269: May 16th 2022 at 11:53:36 AM

(Tony kept his in a safe deposit box in, like, bumfuck Arizona! [lol])

I think to one up himself, he later revealed he moved it from his safe deposit box in Bumfuck, AZ to his sock drawer.

Edited by Bocaj on May 16th 2022 at 2:53:47 PM

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#142270: May 16th 2022 at 1:31:51 PM

Yeah, the Illuminati were a thing long before Hickman's Incursions. They were first created during Civil War, but retroactively established as having existed prior to that. They were introduced to be sort of Tony's last-ditch effort to try and get the entire superhero community onboard with the Registration Act before its official signing.

It's arguably one of the few times Tony was actually written well during that arc. His position was basically, "This is going to happen whether we like it or not. It has the will of the people behind it, and the politicians will sign it. If we get in front of this thing, we can shape what it becomes in ways that we can live with. But if we don't, then it's out of our hands. Either they do this with us, or they do this to us. Please help me make it the former."

So it's basically the logic they gave to Black Widow in the film version. Get ahead of it to keep this from being used to turn them into black ops people or some shit.

That's actually a really good reason for Tony to side with the act and keep it from turning Superheroes into something they don't want to be.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142271: May 16th 2022 at 1:44:16 PM

Yeah. A wrinkle that's kind of been lost in the multiple revisions and different authors and the massive writer revolt against the arc is that Tony was actually against the SHRA. He spent weeks, maybe even months in Washington campaigning against its passing. He hated the idea of it, and only signed on once it became apparent that it couldn't be stopped.

This characterization did not last. Once the arc began in earnest, Tony more or less became the face of the operation. Meanwhile, the writers did not hesitate to voice their concerns with the arc in the form of depicting them all as Turbo-Nazis (including some actual, literal Nazis!), with Stark as their Fuhrer. These days, it's easy to forget that Tony's position was supposed to be complicated - and that, in fact, the arc's writer intended for him to ultimately be right.

But the reason that's easy to forget is because everyone, including said writer, kept having him do incredibly heinous shit. Like, it's not without reason that the fandom and most of the writers took Steve's side. Even Tony's nuanced and complex argument boils down to, "We can't thwart the thing so we might as well join it," which is far from the most heroic position to take if the thing is evil.

So, ironically enough, the SHRA these days is basically considered "That thing Tony Stark did to everyone that one time" in spite of Tony's own opposition to it. Even the MCU version treats Tony as a True Believer in the idea of the Sokovia Accords, even if he constantly gives himself a pass for violating them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 16th 2022 at 1:48:33 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#142272: May 16th 2022 at 1:46:23 PM

If you think about it, Steve's group didn't really have a win condition other than hoping the registration act goes away by itself.

Beating up Tony and co won't do it. They didn't pass the law.

Superheroes going around and beating up superheroes isn't going to convince Congress and the people that unregistered superheroes aren't dangerous to public safety.

Tony and co but mostly Tony had to be written kicking a lot of dogs to hide that fact. Steve was never going to win. The only question is how much he wanted to drag things out and how much damage he wanted to cause and the answer apparently was 'a while and a lot'

But also Tony kicked so many dogs.

[up] Semi-[nja]

Edited by Bocaj on May 16th 2022 at 4:47:02 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142273: May 16th 2022 at 1:49:34 PM

Yeah. There is no possible version of these events in which Steve kicks enough ass that Congress revokes the SHRA. There was no possible way for Steve to win.

What Steve did have was fandom support from readers and writers alike. Steve's position is that he's resisting an unjust law. Literally the only way for him to be in the wrong is if the law is actually just. And although the law itself was never put down on paper for fans to consider for themselves, that's still going to be a hard pill to try and get audiences to swallow when the people enforcing it are behaving like Turbo-Nazis.

Seriously, even the Pro-Reg comics hated the Pro-Regs. I think Carol and Tony's comics were the only ones that even tried to make the SHRA look defensible; The rest of the Pro-Reg titles were busy finding new and exciting crimes against humanity for the Pro-Regs to commit in Tony's name. It cannot be understated how catastrophically this whole "CHOOSE YOUR SIDE, both are valid!" thing crashed and burned.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 16th 2022 at 1:56:18 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#142274: May 16th 2022 at 1:57:27 PM

The Illuminati’s entire thing is that they are arrogant and prone to making bad decisions in their arrogance.

They were the ones who sent Hulk off planet during the Planet Hulk storyline which backfired horribly when Hulk inevitably came back pissed as all Hell with an army and kicked all their asses.

To the point Ghost Rider had the power to defeat Green Scar Hulk but chose to leave him in peace because “Ghost Rider only fights for the innocent and none of the Illuminati are innocent.”

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#142275: May 16th 2022 at 2:01:39 PM

To be fair, the World War Hulk thing wasn't entirely their fault. They sent Hulk to a distant world of lush greenery and peace where he could live out the rest of his days finally achieving what he's always wanted: To be left alone.

But Hulk's ship was hijacked mid-transit and summoned to the brutal slave-mongering battle-world Sakaar instead. Nonetheless, Hulk managed to smash his way into ending a tyrannical empire, found love and acceptance among a people who adore him, and made his own happy ending.

But one of his own friends hated the fact that he stopped smashing, so he nuked Hulk's capital city, killed Hulk's wife, and blamed the Illuminati for it. This put Hulk on a warpath bound for revenge.

Hulk went back to Earth from a planet the Illuminati did not send him to, seeking revenge for a bombing the Illuminati did not commit. The one thing they actually did do wrong was tricking him onto the shuttle to begin with so they could send him away without his consent. And by comparison to the crimes he actually wanted revenge for, that almost seems quaint.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 16th 2022 at 2:02:18 AM

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