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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141676: Apr 21st 2022 at 8:36:27 AM

Sounds perfect.

The key with these stories is that its reliant on the protagonists being flawed like too stubborn or self-righteous to realize they are making things worse. For instance in Uncanny X-Force, Logan and Angel's desire to keep X-Force a covert operation hidden from everyone means that the moment they lose control of the situation, things go horribly shit-faced because no one is aware of the shit they are dealing with.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 21st 2022 at 8:36:40 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#141677: Apr 21st 2022 at 8:52:22 AM

What’s an example of the X Force example?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141678: Apr 21st 2022 at 9:02:55 AM

Angel is losing control of his Archangel personality. They proceed to tell no one about this, with only Wolverine, Deadpool Fantomex, and Psylocke aware. Instead having Psylocke keep him in check with mental therapy. But when Archangel fully takes control of Angel and they find out he's becoming the next Apocalypse they still don't tell anyone about it.

Worse they instead break Dark Beast out of prison to help cure Angel. Dark Beast promptly manipulates and betrays them first chance he gets, freeing Archangel where he then takes over Apocalypse's forces.

The result of their secrecy leads to Archangel nuking a town with Genocide where they plan to use a life seed to drain the planet with the rest of the X-Men and the superhero community none the wiser. At that point Pyslocke is captured, while Wolverine is in a coma leaving only Deadpool, Fantomex, and Deathlok operating who at this point can't even tell anyone whats going on despite Fantomex wanting too because by Deadpool's admission no one would believe them.

Edited by slimcoder on Apr 21st 2022 at 9:40:15 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#141679: Apr 21st 2022 at 9:36:10 AM

Jesus, X-Force

Cue that ultimate spider man meme about mutants here

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141680: Apr 21st 2022 at 12:18:48 PM

Its why I want the black ops movie to get really heavy.

Sure Uncanny X-Force ultimately had a happy ending but the crew had to go through a lot of suffering, misery, and death to get there. Thats the book where Sabretooth pretends to be a father figure to Daken, all to manipulate an ultimate confrontation with Logan ending in the latter drowning the former in a shallow puddle. All just to make Logan feel like crap, not caring that it ended in the death of his men.

I wanna full edgy stuff, like Walker and Yelena getting horribly traumatized in their missions to save the world.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141681: Apr 21st 2022 at 12:31:56 PM

I mean, my impression of John Walker was that he was a deeply insecure man with a lot of trauma that he couldn't or wouldn't recognize who wasn't coping well with the responsibilities of the mantle, and then the serum magnified all of his problems and shattered a mind that was already in pretty rough shape to begin with. I don't think he's a bad person at heart, just someone who was nowhere near stable enough to receive the position he did.

That's also kind of how I feel Daken should be portrayed here - a dude who has seen some shit and has had a wealth of adverse life experiences that definitely explain why he is the way he is, but is also such an unrelenting piece of shit who always manages to find a new way to fuck up his life and make yet another enemy that it makes it excruciatingly hard to feel any real sympathy for him.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#141682: Apr 21st 2022 at 1:38:28 PM

I mean, my impression of John Walker was that he was a deeply insecure man with a lot of trauma that he couldn't or wouldn't recognize who wasn't coping well with the responsibilities of the mantle, and then the serum magnified all of his problems and shattered a mind that was already in pretty rough shape to begin with. I don't think he's a bad person at heart, just someone who was nowhere near stable enough to receive the position he did.

You're completely correct. These facts don't change that he kinda sucks as a person, but him wanting to do good is a part of his character. Hell, he felt shame over whatever he did to get those medals when he was talking with Lemar.

Walker is gonna be a bit of a Wild Card I think, because while the formula will make all the worst parts of him even worse, whatever good in him that wanted to actually help people also got a boost.

He's going to very much be an Hero with an F in Good, even if only barely.

One Strip! One Strip!
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#141683: Apr 21st 2022 at 1:49:00 PM

I think what happens to Walker will largely depend on how Marvel receives the response to the character. They have in the past backslid characterization over fan response (the most self-evident being Loki walking backwards from his Start of Darkness to basically being a quirky anti-hero) so it's nothing impossible for Walker to be slightly pitch-shifted based on response. Either towards more straightforward heroics or towards villainy.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141684: Apr 21st 2022 at 2:01:59 PM

I could see him either trying (with questionable success) to atone for what he did and becoming a genuine, if not deeply flawed and not particularly likable hero, or failing to take any real responsibility or recognize where he went wrong and turning into a self-righteous scumbag doing morally bankrupt black ops jobs who is deluded enough to think that his only problem is that he made one mistake and now no one will ever let him live it down.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 21st 2022 at 2:02:30 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#141685: Apr 21st 2022 at 2:04:18 PM

Honestly, I think Bucky being a needless dick to him probably also didn't help.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141686: Apr 21st 2022 at 2:26:06 PM

I agree that the good route to take is that he's a fundamentally decent person but he's too flawed which makes him easily controlled and prone to making errors.

So it can be either he goes through a trauma congaline and comes out the other side a better person.

Or his story is a tragedy as constant death and misery beats him down until there's nothing left.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141687: Apr 21st 2022 at 4:16:40 PM

[up]That's kinda how I hope they approach Jessica Jones if they do more than just cameos - the end of Season 3 suggests that she's at least somewhat interested in a fresh start, and after three seasons of her being a toxic, irascible, self-destructive asshole who treats everyone in her life like shit and relentlessly alienates anyone who is even somewhat close to her, Jess needs some kind of growth. I see a lot of her in John, just not as extreme.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 21st 2022 at 4:17:14 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141688: Apr 21st 2022 at 6:53:25 PM

On another note I just saw this panel of the Serpent Society and shit they should probably the main villains for Cap 4

https://www.reddit.com/r/Marvel/comments/u16coi/make_america_marvelous_again_sam_wilson_captain/

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/snakes_on_a_plane.png

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#141689: Apr 21st 2022 at 6:56:47 PM

Wow I just want to see him punched by a superhero

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141690: Apr 21st 2022 at 7:34:09 PM

I've always felt it's kind of a shame the Serpent Society never got adapted, but I guess Cap's movies were all so HYDRA-centric (except Cap 3, which was had a very specific and arguably smaller scale threat), that there wasn't a lot of room for Cap villains who weren't specifically folded into what they wanted to get out of HYDRA. Same with Iron Man villains who won't be simplified down to "evil Tony."

Now that Steve is dead and HYDRA is more of a background thing (not that I wouldn't want them to finally make good on that Zola cameo they wrote out of Ant-Man), maybe we can finally get some of Cap's enemies that are out of HYDRA's specific wheelhouse.

Serpent Society would be perfect, mostly because over their long history they've been basically everything you could do with a villain group (a gang of crooks, mercenaries, a revenge squad, a coalition of like minded villains, corporate entity, etc) so the sky's the limit for an adaptation to pick what they want.

The downside is that there haven't been any snake-themed villains already (unless you count Cottonmouth and Diamondback), so there's less of that hilarious comic-book so-ridiculous-it's-kind-of-cool weirdness of "behold! All the snake themed bad guys are in cahoots."

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 21st 2022 at 7:36:49 AM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141691: Apr 21st 2022 at 7:37:53 PM

[up]A ruthlessly efficient and professional organization of superpowered fixers gets my vote. A union hall of supervillains - someone who needs some shady deeds done calls them up and gets the people they need assigned.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141692: Apr 21st 2022 at 7:43:31 PM

Love it. It's a fun idea that would definitely work with Sam and Bucky's deal in F&WS, where they were kind of the same thing but for heroism: freelance good guys who came in whenever the governments of the world needed to drop heroes into a situation.

Hell, the Serpent Society as a mercenary group working for the Maggia would make a great set of villains, and they could even fold Sharon Carter's Power Broker thing into her being a Maggia boss.

I suspect they're going to go Thunderbolts for Cap 4, though.

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#141693: Apr 21st 2022 at 9:54:39 PM

I'm also reminded that M.O.D.O.K and A.I.M started out as Captain America's villains.

Still hoping for the day we see comic-accurate A.I.M on the screen.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#141694: Apr 21st 2022 at 10:00:07 PM

The Serpent Society is a notoriously racist group of villains, right? So having Sam Wilson punch them in the face would be pretty damn satisfying, at least in my opinion.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Apr 21st 2022 at 10:23:39 AM

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#141696: Apr 21st 2022 at 10:11:46 PM

The Sons of the Serpent are the society of white supremacists.

The Serpent Society is just a bunch of snake-themed supervillains.

These two are two entirely different groups. Yeah I know, it's confusing.

lbssb The sleepiest good boi Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
The sleepiest good boi
#141697: Apr 21st 2022 at 10:16:33 PM

Honestly, combining them would be perfectly fine IMO.

Disney100 Marathon | DreamWorks Marathon
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#141698: Apr 21st 2022 at 10:31:36 PM

With either one also get a group of supervillain characters as in you have a bunch of characters operating at once similar to say the Sinister Six or the U-Foes.

Be cool to see Sam going against multiple supervillains each with a different enough power/equipment.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#141699: Apr 22nd 2022 at 5:51:48 AM

The Serpent Society should take The Sons of the Serpent to court.

Imagine yourself being a hardworking snake-themed villain, only to have the name of your union used by a bunch of fucking racist. I would be mad.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#141700: Apr 22nd 2022 at 5:55:29 AM

And then Nick Fury shows up and says "I have had it with these shitty snakes on this goddamn plane!"

The legend has returned.

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