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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141451: Apr 15th 2022 at 6:55:38 AM

I think it'll pick up where GOTG left off as the more lighthearted and fun series.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#141452: Apr 15th 2022 at 7:10:16 AM

Why does he settle for being a crime boss? Wasn't he 100% powerful enough to have been an actual imperial power? What could have toppled him?

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#141453: Apr 15th 2022 at 7:45:51 AM

  • Lex Luthor: "Do you know how much power I'd have to give up to be President?"

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#141454: Apr 15th 2022 at 8:04:10 AM

Higher profile means more enemies, and more dangerous enemies, more internal threats, and more things to keep track of. Also, Wenwu had to have known that a). he wasn't the only superpowered being out there and b). he wasn't the strongest being in the world and was best off staying in his lane. He almost assuredly saw Eternals in action (they wouldn't have done shit to him as long as he didn't directly attack them, but he couldn't have known that), as well as some of Apocalypse's conquests (and maybe even had run-ins with him), and possibly Selene and/or Exodus as well, not to mention any number of alien visitors, time and/or multiversal travelers, and powerful mages throughout his run.

Edited by HasturHasturHastur on Apr 15th 2022 at 8:05:25 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#141455: Apr 15th 2022 at 8:11:18 AM

If we’re talking the MCU then it’s a bummer to try to hold together an empire in ancient times

Even if you can solo an army you can’t be everywhere at once and if you’re everywhere at once, you’re not enjoying being an emperor

Superpowered crime lord has many of the perks with a lot less of the paperwork. Someone else can worry about the plumbing

In the comics it was because the five weapons society wasn’t a crime organization to begin with. It was a “other nations keep kicking around China and that’s not cool” organization that turned into crime when Zheng Zu stopped giving a shit

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#141456: Apr 15th 2022 at 10:03:33 AM

Wenwu was an imperial power. The Ten Rings were doing shit like conquering and enslaving Gulmira in Shang-Chi's lifetime.

We just don't see much of it because they're an Asian imperial power and the MCU is Americentric. But one guy with cool kung fu rings may be able to bring castles to heel, but controlling territory and ruling people is a whole different matter. That's an uphill battle where quantity matters more than quality.

To a war effort, 5,000 Stark missile systems are much more effective than one guy having cool magic rings. Wenwu can win any fight, but that doesn't mean he can control and dominate an entire planet by force. There is a lot more to conquest, expansion, and dominion than the mere ability to beat another guy up.

So Wenwu hasn't managed to conquer Asia, let alone the Earth. But it's not for lack of trying.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 15th 2022 at 10:06:48 AM

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Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#141457: Apr 15th 2022 at 10:10:42 AM

I've argued previously that I think the movie implies (retcons?) that it was actually Killian's Ten Rings that attacked Gulmira. Or at least that it was a group of Ten Rings affiliated with Wenwu.

Because the way in which Wenwu and Trevor discuss Killian and Iron Man (as well as what they don't say) is very suggestive.

Like if you hadn't watched Iron Man 1 and were just going by Shang Chi you would rightly come away with the impression that there was some guy who committed terrorism while calling himself the Mandarin. And Iron Man killed him. But there's no indication that Wenwu or his forces were involved.

Edit - Also, while I'm not good at math and it's confusing in light of both the Snap and Simu Liu being older than the character he's playing, my impression is that during the time of Iron Man 1, Wenwu was either a Retired Monster family man, or was too busy taking revenge on his wife's murders/researching esoteric tests to bring his wife back have time to conquer Afghanistan.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 15th 2022 at 10:14:22 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#141458: Apr 15th 2022 at 10:23:20 AM

It’s left pretty vague what exactly Wenwu did in his time as conqueror, to keep him sympathetic and also because the film doesn’t have the leeway to alter the setting and history that much. The effects of Napoleon, Alexander, Genghis Khan still linger today; now imagine if they had superpowers. The world would never hear the end of it.

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#141459: Apr 15th 2022 at 10:29:47 AM

[up][up] There is actually a deleted scene that has Wenwu mention Raza, the Ten Rings leader that captures Tony in Afghanistan to a captured Iron Gang leader, where Wenwu says that he's pleased with the progress Raza has made in destabilizing the country. So I think the Mandarin was definitely a real threat back in 2008/09 and onwards.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
BOOXMOWO Since: Mar, 2013
#141460: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:01:14 AM

Ying Li died around 2006, so the events of Iron Man would be relatively early in Wenwu's return to crime. It sort of recontextualizes the Ten Rings' dealings with Stane as most likely part of a campaign to re-arm themselves after over a decade of dormancy.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#141461: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:01:36 AM

There is no such thing as "Killian's Ten Rings". At no point did any group of vaguely-Asian terrorists shoot up Asia in service to Killian's agenda.

Killian's terror threat is completely fabricated. His soldiers are 100% Extremis-fueled American war veterans. Sometimes they accidentally explode, at which point Killian piggybacks off the real Ten Rings' reputation using his made-up terror leader to claim the Extremis explosion was actually a Ten Rings bombing.

It's all smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact that his product sucks so bad that it keeps killing people. There have never been any real Asian warlords that report to Killian.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 15th 2022 at 11:02:52 AM

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blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#141462: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:10:13 AM

Which part of China did Wenwu rule? As which Emperor? By the time of the empires in China, the Chinese were already literate, and capable of astonishingly realistic artwork. They'd remember him in some capacity.

Maybe he only lived in the legendary pre-large empire times. Hell maybe his vision inspired the First Emperor's.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#141463: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:20:54 AM

This is YMMV obviously, but as I see it RE the Ten Rings:

So in Iron Man 1, the Ten Rings were a clear stand-in for the Taliban, I'd assume due to a combination of the MCU starting out more "grounded" and because of the historical context of the "War on Terror". The movie (depending on how you look at it) subverts the Islamophobia or has its cake and eats it too by having a sort of "twist" where Raza and co. are revealed to be talking about working for Stane in very pragmatic terms, instead of the expected references to Allah and Jihad.

Iron Man 3 goes further by framing the Mandarin as a stand-in for Osama bin Laden, but then subverts it by revealing he's an actor working for Killian, an American military contractor.

I think that Shang Chi goes a step farther, in seeming to tie Killian to the crimes of the Ten Rings of the first movie - Killian is referred to as a "terrorist", and rather than being "fake Islamic terrorists" - something true of both Raza and Killian, but not true of Wenwu's Ten Rings, who are Chinese (with the exception of Token White Razorfist) and are a combination of Triads and mystical secret society. Not coincidentally, rather similar to Fu Manchu's organization.

[up] Wenwu states that one of his many names was "Great Khan", so it's possible that he was Genghis Khan. Also, I don't know enough about Chinese history/armor to pinpoint a date, but I assumed (correct me if I'm wrong here) that when we see him in a flashback, he was leading armies during one of China's "warring states" periods. So I'd guess either Three Kingdoms (maybe he's Cao Cao?) or during the Jin-Song War.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 15th 2022 at 11:24:40 AM

fanman "To watch it all burn." from Earth-Prime/Earth-1218 Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
"To watch it all burn."
#141464: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:28:02 AM

[up]Should someone add Beethoven Was an Alien Spy to his character page?

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#141465: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:34:08 AM

Wenwu is the MCU's Genghis Khan, so I feel like he would count.

The legend has returned.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#141466: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:44:59 AM

He's WHAT

He's definitely Han Chinese though -_-

And Genghis Khan's empire fell apart because of a succession crisis (and maybe the plague helped)

Wenwu doesn't dieeeeeeee

Edited by blkwhtrbbt on Apr 15th 2022 at 1:45:52 PM

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#141467: Apr 15th 2022 at 11:54:28 AM

Yeah. I don't really want to support the "pandering to China" take on the movie, but I am a bit uncomfortable with how the Han Chinese Wenwu used to be the Great Khan, implying someone Mongol (if not necessarily Genghis himself).

Also, I just remembered someone else who it would be cool for Wenwu to be - the Hongwu Emperor, who founded the Ming Dynasty - a man from humble birth who was a great reformer (and admirably ecumenical), but was also a terrifyingly merciless tyrant.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141468: Apr 15th 2022 at 12:06:17 PM

The Mandarin being connected to Genghis Khan has been a thing for a while, with comics Mandarin boasting lineage back to Khan (not that that's necessarily rare). The Mandarin literally being Genghis Khan iirc comes from Iron Man Armored Adventures, but in that series there was an "original" superpowered-but-still-mortal Mandarin with all his powers who was Genghis, and the current Mandarin was a descendant.

Presumably in the history of the MCU, Wenwu / Temugin instead abdicated for favor of other pursuits or believing his descendants could handle the Empire, only for everything to go to shit and for history to assume he died.

That said, the film doesn't explicitly say so (just uses much of the trappings for the character), so Beethoven Was an Alien Spy shouldn't be added to the page.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 15th 2022 at 12:07:55 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#141469: Apr 15th 2022 at 1:53:54 PM

Khan of Heaven was a title that some of the Han-descended Tang emperors took as a show of their alliances with several Turkic condederations.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#141471: Apr 15th 2022 at 4:58:13 PM

Re: Killian:

While he started out having a fake terrorist take credit for the accidental Extremis explosions, over the course of the movie he did start staging genuine terrorist attacks in order to maintain the ruse.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#141472: Apr 15th 2022 at 5:07:03 PM

As far as we see in the film, every "terrorist" attack by the Mandarin was one of his experiments going haywire.

The only exception was his kidnapping of the president, which he did to ensure his patsy would become president and give him government funding. He did eventually start positioning minions he knew were going to explode in places to make convincing attacks, but that's framed more as destroying the evidence of his scheme in the worst way possible.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 15th 2022 at 5:20:38 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#141473: Apr 15th 2022 at 5:07:30 PM

The attack on Tony’s house

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#141474: Apr 15th 2022 at 5:14:55 PM

Yeah, but the attacks against Tony and POTUS still looked absolutely nothing like the attack on Gulmira and other associated actual Ten Rings activities. It would be difficult to mistake a bunch of white people in t-shirts and jeans for Raza's multi-ethnic terror band visually modeled on Al Qaeda.

Gulmira was a warlord insurgency in a fictional Middle-Eastern region. The attacks against Tony and POTUS were a desperate False Flag conspiracy to pretend some American soldiers in American garb totally look like foreign terrorists as long as nobody actually sees them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Apr 15th 2022 at 5:15:52 AM

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Cross (Don’t ask)
#141475: Apr 15th 2022 at 5:15:27 PM

[up][up]That’s on Tony.

Edited by Cross on Apr 15th 2022 at 8:16:00 AM


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