Marvel Cinematic Universe

I will say regarding the first episode of Loki that I greatly appreciated the show actually sticking with and committing to Loki's Avengers characterization, albeit with his comedic timing from Ragnarok. They could've easily fully canonized him being influenced by the Mind Stone, focusing on him quickly weaning off it and having to come to grips with his paranoia escalating into full-on war-mongering in a way that Thor: The Dark World quietly ignored. Instead Loki is still on the high of thinking Earth was his right to rule, with nary a mention of even Thanos as a factor in his "master plan". And the episode proceeds to interrogate this and break it down, and it concludes with Loki admitting that his A God Am I tendencies are actually him projecting his own insecurities onto others.

Every movie Loki's appeared in (except for his Infinity War/Endgame cameos) he's tried to take over a planet: Asgard in Thor, Earth in The Avengers, Asgard again in The Dark World, and Sakaar in Ragnarok (though that was less a full-fledged attempt, and more him pitching the idea to Thor that, hey, two of 'em team up, take down the Grandmaster, there's a planet for the taking).

Megalomania's kind of a big part of the character.

This is so Loki's song

I do think Loki (at least at this point in his timeline) does genuinely believe he'd be a good ruler. Of course, as Ragnarok shows, he's wrong about that. But his arrogance/general superiority complex makes that a concept he struggles with.

I guess Saint Heimdall won't be calling Loki's name.

I have high hopes for Shang Chi, but I can't help but wish that they'd cast someone other than Simu Liu in the lead. I'm sure my perceptions have been warped by those 70's Shang Chi comics, but I envision Shang Chi as having more of a Bruce Lee vibe, whereas Simu Liu looks so aggressively ordinary to me that I feel like he's going to try to sell me a used car. I'm going to see the film, and I hope he proves me wrong, but so far, in stills and in the trailer, he communicates more "state senator" than "legendary warrior" to me.

Then again, it's not like the filmmakers could just pluck a Bruce Lee Clone from the street.

I think the two biggest things Simu has going for him is that he has a large acting range but is especially solid with comedy, which is something Disney openly values, and that he's an experienced stuntman with a martial arts background. I imagine for someone like Shang-Chi who is heavily defined by his martial arts ability they wanted someone who could actually do the stuntwork themselves, someone who could convincingly throw and take punches and kicks themselves that they could keep focus in on.

As a lifelong fan of HK Martial arts cinema I'm actually glad they're downplaying a bit the Bruce Lee Clone image. The HK martial arts genre has lived in Bruce's shadow too long. It's nice to break the mold a tad. People don't even remember the contemporary martial arts cinema legends from HK (like the Venom Mob and Gordon Liu).

I have a healthy degree of skepticism towards Shang Chi, but it's due other factors. Mainland CCP pandering, the director being inexplicably Japanese-american (and with little experience in martial arts cinema beforehand), and one of the screenwriters being David Callaham (the mastermind involved in gems such as the Doom movie, WW 1984, the new Mortal Kombat and who may or may not have stolen credit for the script of the Expendables).

We could always find a guy who brings to mind a more Kenshiro/Fist of the North Star look.

Ironically, with Limu they seem to have essentially shifted Shang from a Bruce Lee type into a “everyman action hero” Jackie Chan type.

On further thought they really should bring in guys like Iko Uwais and Yayan Ruhian.

If you’ve seen The Raid you know they are some incredible fighters.

Either of them as the Power Broker would have ruled.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 21st 2021 at 4:55:01 AM

@ Gaon - I'm curious what makes you perceive the Shang Chi movie as pandering to mainland China/the CCP.

Because my impression is that while it's definitely framed as providing Asian/specifically Chinese representation in the MCU, it's much more geared towards the Chinese diaspora.

For what it's worth, I am partly basing this on a combination of Simu Liu and Awkwafina themselves and the causes they support / the fact that Mainland Chinese (and to be fair seemingly also people in Taiwan and Hong Kong) think they are an insult to Chinese people because they are "ugly".

For that matter, it's looking like it will be Banned in China.

Yeah. I mean the fact they hate it (and might ban it) doesn't necessarily rule out attempted pandering - case in point Mulan (2020) - but I don't really see it in this case.

I don't think the movie is definitely mainland CCP pandering (as you noticed, it's been the source of quite the controversy so if that was the intent they might have faield miserably), but it is a concern the final product will have traits of it because of the MCU's past history. It's hard for me not to be skeptical after the shambolic mess that was Doctor Strange in that regard and Disney's very own Mulan. The MCU proper has a sketchy track record with this between this and Iron Man 3 so it is a concern.

As far as the trailers and materials go, not much concerns me at first-glance, but the spectre of that track record looms.

Edited by Gaon on Jun 21st 2021 at 7:03:51 AM

Isn't Tony Leung pro-CCP?

I think all Chinese actors are pro-CCP, if only because being anti-CCP is a good way to get disappeared.

The pro-CCP one is Tony Leung Ka-fai (a.k.a "Big Tony"), the one starring in this is Tony Leung Chiu-wai (a.k.a "Little Tony"), who has been silent on the HK protests. This is something that tripped me up as well in the past, but it seems like the Tony Leung of Shang-Chi hasn't gone to bat for the CCP (and in fact has gotten into hot water for supporting the 2014 protests and fraternizing with the Dalai Lama).

Pretty much, most of these statements especially from Hongkongers are done more out of obligation than anything else. Much more rare that you get someone like Jackie Chan who will go the full Quisling and proactively makes pro-CCP statements even unprompted. As for Donnie Yen's statements I'm not so sure, the Ip Man series has very nationalistic themes so it could be that he's doing it to keep up appearances or he chose it because he really does hold some very Han nationalist beliefs.

I get the impression that Shang-Chi is going to place a lot of focus on the East Asian diasporic daily life and that may be a skill that Cretton is more well-equipped in, and which doesn't really have as much overlap with CCP appeasement so long as they don't go anywhere near subjects that are CCP hotspots like Central Asia, Hong Kong, or Taiwan. And also remember that vocal assholes on social media don't really account for how an entire populace may feel.

After all there's that oft-repeated chestnut that China hates Black Panther due to the comments of loudmouthed racists on Weibo and We Chat (really they're not that different from US Internet assholes who yell about the film promoting an ethnostate). This despite the movie doing quite well there by international standards and despite the film having a healthy amount of continued Chinese fan engagement as measured by the activity of its Yaoi Fangirls.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 21st 2021 at 10:40:40 AM

Okay shit that is confusing.

Did not know there is 2 Tony's. What is this a mob movie?

Ah so the Chinese also support that ship too.

Edited by slimcoder on Jun 21st 2021 at 7:19:38 AM

Yeah, over in China you won't see as much handwringing about people being a Complete Monster for drawing and writing Kissing Cousins stories the way Western fandom Moral Guardians do.

@ Gaon - I mostly see where you are coming from, but I still think your earlier post gives the sense that there is some quality about the movie/promotion thus far that makes you suspect CCP pandering. Because I'm pretty confident that you aren't considering Chinese (American) representation as a sign of CCP pandering.

Personally, I don't see the kind of cultural/ideological red flags that Mulan had.

I'm not at all confident that Shang Chi will be a great movie, but the presence of some genuine Chinese mythological references coupled with an actually Asian protagonist makes me think that it will avoid some of the problems with the Doctor Strange movie.

The other "elephant in the room" is the adaptation of a Chinese Mandarin as a Pragmatic Adaptation of Shang Chi's comic dad, Fu Manchu. Sort of an Inspiration Nod too I think, because The Mandarin is one of many Yellow Peril characters inspired by Fu.

But while that is potentially offensive, it doesn't really suggest CCP pandering either.

Edit - Also cool to learn that the Tony Leung in the movie is not the "problematic one".

Edited by Hodor2 on Jun 21st 2021 at 9:22:37 AM

The fact their nicknames are "Big Tony" and "Little Tony" does make this sound a lot like a mob movie, I'll admit.

Generally I try to avoid statements generalizing Chinese response and pandering (which is why I've been wording it as "Mainland CCP pandering") because of things like what Alley outlined. It's also why I give some measure of leeway about actors and the HK protestors (I don't blame someone like Stephen Chow, for example, for being silent as the grave on the subject).

Jackie Chan can go fuck himself, though. Donnie Yen I'm also not too convinced he isn't just a Han ethnonationalist but there's room for doubt, sure.

I'd have loved if Marvel had cast the likes of Anthony Wong and the man the myth the legend Chow Yun-Fat, who have actually spoken out and been completely blacklisted (leading to Fat's legendary response to his blacklisting: "I'll just make fewer movies, then.")

As I said, it's mostly just a gut feeling with the MCU's track record and Disney's. I probably wouldn't even have this gut feeling if Mulan (and its unironic collaboration with a genocidal task force) didn't happen, because after that anything under Disney's umbrella in the topic of chinese representation is going to make me skeptical. In terms of my actual concerns for the film's quality, it tracks a lot lower than the other aspects I pointed out. I haven't had any problems with the film's actual trailers and cast (if nothing else the ruckus it seems to have caused in the shallow pro-mainland CCP corners of the net as mentioned by alley has been a good sign).

Edited by Gaon on Jun 21st 2021 at 7:40:58 AM