Marvel Cinematic Universe

It's a thing that could ambiguously lead to interesting Watsonian conflicts and add genuine depth and moral grayness to her if borne out (and for the record Wanda being acknowledged as guilty in-universe would actually make me like and sympathize with her more, since I love flawed heroes), but on a Doylist level the MCU writers seem completely disinterested in even looking at it or anything that could risk darkening their heroes. I don't really care who is more guilty between Wanda and the Hulk, but it's a conversation they refuse to have.

The only official stance we have is that the writers of the Cap films view her as completely innocent and helpless in the matter, but openly admitted that it's for the Doylist reason of not wanting to deal with the writing morass that was Whedon's work on AOU. However said comments have gotten some criticism of Double Standard since the same interview then blamed someone who was explicitly Brainwashed and Crazy and remorseful as 100% guilty and deserving of punishment, seemingly treating Watsonian guilt as a matter of whoever did the action regardless of mental state (thus, despite their desire to avoid the conversation, implying that the murders in AOU are entirely the Hulk's fault).

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 11th 2020 at 9:19:07 AM

My two cents on the "Wanda issue":

As far a Hydra goes, I think it's easy enough to accept that she and her brother didn't know what they were joining, because one of Hydra's main "things" is infiltrating the intelligence services of various countries. Also (and more on this below), my understanding is that Wanda and Pietro joined as kids, which makes them a bit less culpable.

Speaking of their ages, although I don't like AOU, I do find it interesting how Whedon kind of wrote lies as if Wanda and Pietro were kids, even though the actors obviously aren't. If Wanda and Pietro were actually minors during the events of the movie, it's a lot easier to empathize with them, despite in Wanda's case, her committing an action that is a pretty clear Moral Event Horizon (unleashing Hulk). For a work that does a good job with "protagonist who engaged in horrendous behavior as a child soldier", see Setsuna in Gundam 00.

I think it was a real problem that the movie doesn't show Wanda having a My God, What Have I Done? moment when the Hulk attacks civilians and doesn't have lines to the effect that she thought that Banner would be incapacitated / would attack the other Avengers. I don't blame subsequent movies for ignoring this, because it's just not possible to have Wanda as a sympathetic character if this is something she did on purpose.

I also have a broader "theory" about how some comic book tropes work less well in a "naturalistic" setting, and I think one of those is the likable and/or reformed henchperson, because the Nebulous Evil Organization they work for are more like ISIL than Team Rocket.

It wasn't just Whedon who treated Wanda younger than she appeared, the Russos did to a point as well with Steve saying "She's just a Kid!" when arguing about her house arrest and Tony placing her under house arrest in Civil War.

And that statement unleashes a whole nother can of worms with the character and how badly she was handled overall.

Good point. Which also reminds me, I'm very iffy on the fact that Civil War has Wanda accidentally kill a bunch of Africans in light of the fact that AOU previously had her deliberately (to at least some moral/legal degree, even with the most generous interpretation of her actions) kill a bunch of Africans.

She's definitely tied with Hawkeye for most racist Avenger.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 11th 2020 at 2:39:37 PM

And if she was just a kid, that would make Cap taking her into the field just as bad as Tony taking Peter into the field.

Also agreed.

I guess we have to pretend that Wanda was somewhere less than 16 during AOU and somewhere over 18 by the time of Civil War.

...Has Wanda ever spoken to either Sam or Rhodey? Or does she just not want to talk to black people until we have to save her battery-powered boyfriend?

Looks like you guys were talking about Sally Floyd a bit ago? I remember this or some other gag dub of the Civil War comics, ramping up character traits to where she's even more stubborn, and Cap is even more exasperated, leading to him telling her he doesn't have time to translate the reality into "dumb bitch" for her, and he'd just ask Ben Urich to do it. It was my first exposure to her character, so it wasn't exactly flattering.

Wanda's 18th birthday took place during Civil War. For her present, Tony locked her in her room. What a jerk.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Aug 11th 2020 at 2:47:03 PM

That and she only feels bad in Civil War after the skyscraper thing. Where was this at the beginning of the movie? In fact, why was Wanda on that team at all, seeing as she's still guilty of all the stuff she did back in Ao U? Shouldn't she have Power Nullifier cuffs and be in custody or on trial or something?

Edited by Altris on Aug 11th 2020 at 12:49:14 PM

She came on that mission specifically to endanger African people, and was only bothered that she hurt more than she intended Crossbones.

In fact, she deliberately manipulated events in Infinity War to end up in Wakanda so she could kill more Africans.

Yes I'm just making shit up, but it's not entirely out of character...

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Aug 11th 2020 at 2:49:56 PM

Speaking of Sally, I meant to ask, was her lines about the "Clean Wehrmacht" in the Civil War comic (or another earlier comic) or in Secret Empire?

I'm hoping the latter, as while still questionable writing, it kind of makes sense as an appeal to Nazi!Cap (even though it implies that she's speaking to him as a "fellow traveler"). But if not, that's some really questionable writing...

It was in one of the Frontline tie-ins in Civil War.

Which I why I find her being arrested in Secret Empire to be Hilarious in Hindsight.

Edited by Forenperser on Aug 11th 2020 at 10:00:50 AM

You'd think that would be brought up more in discussions about her.

Thanks for the info. Huh. I suppose that it's possible that whoever the writer was didn't believe in the Clean Wehrmacht trope himself, but put it in Sally's mouth to highlight her as an unsympathetic character.

But still pretty odd in a context where she's appealing to the normal version of Captain America and not the Nazi version.

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 11th 2020 at 4:07:07 AM

I seem to remember Wanda being mentioned as 19-20 or such in Civil War. So she's not an actual child, just treated like one because she's the youngest. I also seem to remember the writers even rationalized it as such (and, IIRC, they might've implied that on some level the Avengers themselves were guilty of infantilizing her in-universe, which makes the writers' own "she's just an innocent girl" statements that much more baffling). Raises more questions about her agency in AOU, or at least it would if Depending on the Writer wasn't so clearly in play.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 11th 2020 at 6:20:09 AM

I've mentioned before how Marvel kept giving the pro-reg side a bunch of asshole moments to make the conflict between them and the anti-reg side seem "fair". Maybe this is what happened with Sally and the Clean Wehrmacht thing.

Not that it makes for good writing at all.

Since we're talking about Civil War, I might as well post this:

I feel like both sides of the original Civil War make sense, albeit for different reasons. Team Cap makes sense to people out of universe because for the most part we have no reason not to trust superheroes. Team Iron Man makes sense to people in-universe because superheroes constantly butt heads with the cops.

Better refrain the jokes.

The issue with wanda is not much what she did, is that the answer the movie give us was....nothing, it deliberary try to pretend it didnt happen which it come as confusing, the closer was a moment when banner grabs wanda and said "try to see my mind again how angry im" which is telling because is probably THE only moment we actually see banner actually angry at something....which it can tell you how much it suck for him what ahppen in johanesburg.

It also come weirder in civil war becayse hulk vs tony get omited, which is THE moment pro reg would have a point: two avengers dunking out in a city full of people because wanda and her acountability is...joing the team, is intersting how ross would probably have a field day with that(I mean, is hulk finally acting as he always though he would, im surprise he isnt dancing around saying "I was right, right, right" over and over).

And....yes I admit I did a joke about how wanda using her power have accidently let to african people dying and oyoke would probably kept her very far from tchalla.

Whedon put future writers in a very complex position with Wanda.

Future writers paid it forward by ignoring it best they could.

Its an intensely comic book way to deal with a problem.

Age of Ultron’s writing of Wanda was poor all around. On top of the aforementioned Hulk issue, her vendetta towards Tony gets abruptly dropped the instant the story decides she’s a “good guy” now. Then at the climax she has an odd moment of youth-like self doubt, even though prior to then she’d been holding her own against multiple Avengers and Ultron himself. She feels like several characters crammed into one.

Her Vendetta against Tony gets dropped when she finds out the robot she helped created (cause she put the idea in Stark's head) is gonna destroy the fucking planet and start with her home (that she became empowered to protect mind you). As for her self doubt: to paraphrase Hawkeye: the city was flying. Robots were everywhere, and it was all her fault. Of course she's gonna be overwhelmed. Everyone not only in Sokovia, but on the planet was in danger because of her grudge. That's gonna weigh on you.

....that's why I say execute her.

......

What?

It's the only way to end the arguments about her.....then again, people are still trying to get revenge against Tony Stark, so maybe that ship has sailed.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 11th 2020 at 8:02:44 AM

Hot take: Scarlet Witch is the best female superhero in the MCU (prior to Captain Marvel), and she deserved a movie before Black Widow did.

Her weirdly changing accent aside, I do very much like Wanda as a character. She's got a lot of depth. I was excited for Captain Marvel, and I still stand by my claim that it's a very good movie and that Brie Larson did a fine job of acting. However, that character is god tier and hard to challenge with a meaningful threat. Wanda... well, she's pretty high tier herself but we've seen her vulnerable.

Captain Marvel is a Flying Brick with energy attacks while Scarlet Witch is a Squishy Wizard. The latter tend to be easier to write fight scenes around, since a normal person punching Scarlet Witch can still hurt her a decent amount, while a normal person punching Captain Marvel would break their hand on her face.