Marvel Cinematic Universe

Quick question, did anyone else think Civil War was a bit overloaded when it came to plots? I honestly think that it would have been better if the Bucky stuff got its own movie.

I think a lot of people felt that way. It still managed to pull out being a cohesive film, but just barely. And yeah, a lot of fans of the Captain America solo film are still understandably grumpy about that and wish the resolution to the Bucky/HYDRA storyline didn't have to share space with and risk getting crowded out by everything else going on Civil War. Civil War is definitely a better Avengers film than AOU but while it works as a Cap film it could've been so much more.

I am glad that the Cap/Widow friendship managed to stay intact in that film despite the overall subplot crowding, though. Their hug in the church was one of my favorite scenes.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 5th 2020 at 1:46:28 PM

I mean we call it the avenger 2.5 for a reason.

It also feel the movie jump quite a bit, is hilarious how the fight in the airport help him: the avenger nearly beat themselves, leaving them un trustable and on the edge.

Really they handle themselves in a silverplate.

I always felt that way about Ragnarok. To the point where I kinda find the movie hard to get into. Like, it has two plots, and both sound cool. Just not when they take screen time away from each other.

That and Hela was a pretty weak villain, despite how thematically interesting she was on paper.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 7:41:11 PM

I thought Hela herself had charisma and interesting motivation whenever she was onscreen, but lacked an effective enough surrounding cast to bounce off of so she could be used to her fullest.

I kinda thought the Planet Hulk stuff ate into screen time that could've been used to flesh her out more.

Though maybe pinning that on the Hulk stuff is unfair. Maybe she got about as much screen time as most MCU villains get.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 10:24:25 AM

Phase 1 of the MCU had okay villains, it was Phase 2 where the villains took a sharp downturn, with the only decent villains being in Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron. Phase 3 really stepped it up, having consistently amazing villains with the notable exceptions of Kaecilius and Hela being written more like Phase 1 villains.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 6th 2020 at 3:36:57 AM

The problem with Hela is mostly that she never really had much impact on Thor personally beyond a couple of fight scenes. She was more Heimdall's nemesis than Thor's.

I still wish I liked Killmonger more than I do. Considering how unanimously praised he is.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 11:22:29 AM

Hela look more like a foil of loki than Thor, which reinforce more the idea lokie was the true protagonist all along

Hell I will said infinite war is the TRUE thor movie: he want revenge after what thanos did to his family and people so he go into a EPIC quest, were he made a EPIC WEAPON forge by the CORE OF A DYING STAR, it feel epic in a space fantasy way, something none of the thor movie give to us.

Also it was the movie that actually treat thor more than beach boy and the "hot one! of the group.

Edited by unknowing on Aug 6th 2020 at 7:25:22 AM

I honestly thought Avengers: Infinity War was pretty jumbled in terms of plot. Sure, it's a necessary evil to put all these characters together, but still.

Dense, awkward plotting is the price you pay for cross-series continuity, as fans of the source material are well aware.

I’m genuinely curious about this. What issues do you have with Killmonger?

Personally I love Killmonger—as he is a very timely villain with a great motivation, but I do think there is a serious Draco in Leather Pants thing going on with him.

Then again, I guess being played by Michael B. Jordan will do that.

I still like Infinity War much more than Endgame, for the fact alone that it is giving individual characters much more focus and screentime.

In Endgame, like 50 % of the cast are dead for most of the movie and only come back for the big slugfest at the end.

I think Endgame has the stronger story overall but Infinity War just feels...bigger (and less controversial). Also, the Guardians are pretty much at their best in Infinity War and the film is much more fun with them in it.

Endgame also does have Professor Hulk, though, who is just the best.

The main issue with Civil War is the commonly cited tonal problem in the MCU. We have this big hero vs hero, friend vs friend battle in the mid point and yet it's rather toothless in terms of stakes and tension. The airport fight is hilariously silly, and then we are suddenly supposed to take things seriously when someone gets hurt.

He had a good, sympathetic motivation, but he never came across as actually sympathetic during the course of the film to me. He felt like an asshole lashing out at the world because of what happened in his past, with no profundity to his actions or choices beyond that, despite what he insists. He always sounded somewhat insincere. Which is good for what it is, but it feels like people genuinely consider him deep and nuanced, when every action he took just served to screw Wakanda over more and more. I didn't think Michael's performance was all that special either, people love his "bury me like my ancestors" line and find it very poignant and thought-provoking, but even that felt more like a pretentious kid trying to sound deep and important.

I think it's a me thing, and I'm failing to pick up on all the nuances other people saw that elevate him beyond just any other vengeance-driven villain.

Edited by GNinja on Aug 6th 2020 at 9:30:24 AM

I admit to wishing that Killmonger was more of anti-hero than an outright villain. He's a massive hypocrite and a bit of a psychopath, but I think he's sympathetic and pretty understanding. He's a soldier and a revolutionary who wants to reinstate power and aide to the African diaspora. Also, a lot of his pain and anger comes from his disenfranchisement both personally and universally. It's not overtly nuanced but it is a rare thing to see in a major blockbuster film.

The real nuance is in how his ideology relates to the rest of the cast. T'Challa who believes in compassion and legacy, Nakia who believes in sharing the wealth, Okoye who believes in loyalty, and the rest of Wakanda who believes in holding the wealth for its own people. Killmonger stirs up the conversation because a lot of the things he says is right, and the intrigue comes from the fact that there is a dissonance between his own actions and what he says he believes.

Two things can definitely be true about Erik. Erik could by all means genuinely believe in empowering the African diaspora, but he could also be consumed so much hatred for his past and Wakanda that it colors his motivation. The ultimate tragedy is that if Erik had a better life and been shown more compassion, he would probably be a force for serious change in the way that T'Challa was.

If this were a shonen he'd join the heroes.

Which would be funny since Jordan is a Dragon Ball fan.

Hey guys

Could Goku beat up with Thanos with the infinity Gauntlet?

-runs-

Erik talks about empowering people of African descent, but by his own confession ultimately he knows his plan will kill countless of them too and he really just wants the whole world to burn for taking his dad away from him.

I like him as a villain but I feel like a lot of people get caught up on his pretty words as a revolutionary and not his actual hidden motives. He's a hurt child lashing out at an uncaring world, and using world history as a fig leaf to convince himself and others his cause is more selfless than it really is.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 6th 2020 at 6:34:10 AM

I feel like if there was one non-Loki villain that should have been redeemed, it should have been Killmonger.

I'd like to see more of Killmonger in the Ancestral Plane. Maybe in the afterlife he can find some kind of peace with himself and understanding with T'challa.

I kinda don't wanna see Killmonger again for the same reason I don't wanna see Thanos or Ultron again. His final scene was so good it'd feel like a shame to not end his story on that note, even as a post-mortem scene.

All 3 of them did have fantastic final moments.