TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

People seem to be using this as a secondary CrapsackWorld page.: Earth That Used To Be Better

Go To

Deadlock Clock: Feb 23rd 2012 at 11:59:00 PM
DSFARGEG from Alpha Centauri A system Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Aug 4th 2011 at 7:42:48 AM

It's supposed to be a milder version of Earth-That-Was (which is also being used as a secondary Crapsack World).

Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#2: Aug 4th 2011 at 7:58:06 AM

Hey, you know what would be wild? Having a link to the old YKTTW to see if this discussion has come up before. The link could be put on the discussion page!

Sarcastic faux hypotheses aside, your concerns really have been brought up and addressed before, and all the examples are still within the bounds of the trope description. Including the ones you deleted.

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#3: Aug 4th 2011 at 8:12:22 AM

Westrim, the fact that it was brought up in the YKTTW doesn't mean that it can't be a problem. And dial back the attitude, even if you did launch it.

Looking at the YKTTW:

  • The write-up acknowledges that it needed a better title, but it was launched with the bad one anyway.
  • The definition starts out saying that it's Earth-That-Was But Less or Crapsack World But On Earth
  • there was no discussion of the trope itself, just a lot of example-adding.
  • Finally, there's not consistent way it's used, because as it's defined, the only thing necessary to list a work that there's been a sizeable off-planet migration from earth.

edited 4th Aug '11 8:16:49 AM by Madrugada

DSFARGEG from Alpha Centauri A system Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Aug 4th 2011 at 9:32:28 AM

Then perhaps it should be better defined, and not holding a personal grudge against anyone who questions exactly what a page is defined as. The page says that being a Crapsack World is optional but not required.

Stratadrake Dragon Writer Since: Oct, 2009
Dragon Writer
#5: Aug 4th 2011 at 9:52:18 AM

The first point Madrugada raises is one of the major YKTTW faux-pas, but hold on — wasn't this thing launched back in 2010?

edited 4th Aug '11 9:55:46 AM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Aug 4th 2011 at 10:26:11 AM

How long ago it was made may affect how its performance is judged, but it's not an automatic protection against someone saying that it appears to be broken.

Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#7: Aug 4th 2011 at 10:26:59 AM

^^^^ My sarcasm was not because I launched it and DSFARGEG is criticizing it, it's because he didn't do some basic checking before doing so. His concern was specifically addressed in the very first two comments of the YKTTW, and I explained my position there. If he didn't think that was sufficient and wanted more discussion on it that's fine, but trope repair shop discussions should not be casually plastered on pages and should have a little more thought put into their genesis. It bugs me no matter which page I see it on, since the corresponding discussion page -which should be the first step, so far as I know, in addressing a concern about a page- is almost always blank, or at least devoid of mention of the issue.

Addressing your concerns:

1. The title was changed. The talk about changing is partially an artifact, mostly still there because I thought this might be too long or unwieldy (comment 6 from the bottom or so; I wish they were numbered), but it's held up well. So yes, that concern was addressed.

2. It's saying that those are comparable tropes, not that they are this trope, but to a different degree. Perhaps I should pin them to the end to make that more clear, but I was focused on describing the trope.

3. Skimming, I see at least 5 that discuss the trope itself. Also, it underwent significant editing after most of the comments in response to their concerns (which probably led to issue 2).

4. All of the examples still have some degree of degradation of the planet as a major past or present concern in the story. I created the trope for all the works where Earth is neither forgotten nor the center of everything, but everywhere I looked it still lost luster or power as the homeworld of humanity, and the added examples still hold to that. Even Halo has the surface partially destroyed, and lots of conflicts in the backstory that did major damage. Seems fine to me.

I bumped it 20-30 times (with comments and edits) over the course of two months. I couldn't exactly force anyone to ask the questions you feel weren't addressed adequately. I've never watched Crapsack World, so if some works have been moved in there that should be here, that needs to be addressed; I'll look later.

EDIT: Sorry, since I started typed this more comments have been made. Reading now. EDIT 2: Read, pretty much already covered by what I've already written.

edited 4th Aug '11 10:37:02 AM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
helterskelter Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#8: Aug 4th 2011 at 10:55:32 AM

Uh—first of all, it doesn't matter if the YKTTW makes the distinction: if it is not apparent in the trope page itself, the trope has failed. You prematurely launched a premature trope.

The trope as it reads now is muddy and indistinct. I'm having trouble parsing out what it's trying to be. Why is there such emphasis placed on migration when the trope is about the Earth being decayed? That seems like an aspect, not a requirement. If people have migrated off of Earth, that's its own distinct trope, unrelated to how nice/crappy it is, I imagine. It's probably going to be crappy most of the time, but there we are. Then there's "Earth is decaying" as a trope.

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Aug 4th 2011 at 11:55:59 AM

If it's going to be kept, I would suggest renaming it to something along the lines of Abandoned Earth and making it a supertrope to Earth-That-Was.

Hrm, not really abandoned. What's the word for a place that's left mostly empty by emigration? I know there was one... Ghost Town Earth... no, that has the wrong implications... I guess Mostly Abandoned Earth or some such thing, but really... Discarded Earth? Earth Left Behind? Gah. It's harder to name than it seems.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Aug 4th 2011 at 12:02:32 PM

Abandoning Earth would work, if it's about the out-migration itself. If it's supposed to be about the condition of the Earth, that's But Less/But More territory

edited 4th Aug '11 12:02:39 PM by Madrugada

Aquillion Since: Jan, 2001
#11: Nov 6th 2011 at 9:17:41 AM

Well, are we going to rename it, then?

Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#12: Jan 19th 2012 at 1:12:54 AM

This has been dead for 5 months. Can we discard it now, or make a new thread if someone wants to revive the discussion?

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#13: Feb 20th 2012 at 10:42:39 AM

Another month. Again, is this still running or is it just more TRS clutter?

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#14: Feb 20th 2012 at 7:58:59 PM

Clocking due to inactivity.

rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#15: Feb 20th 2012 at 8:58:27 PM

The Same But More Specific, The Same But More, and The Same But Less are all equivalent (roughly, in the case of the first) and equally bad.

edited 20th Feb '12 9:00:07 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#16: Feb 20th 2012 at 9:19:02 PM

Good thing the trope is none of those, then. Earth-That-Was is quite specific about Earth being abandoned, negating comparisons to this trope, which is quite specific about earth still being occupied. There is still an issue of too much focus on quality of life on the perhaps no longer blue marble, when it should be on the offworld population, so a name change probably would be a good thing. None of the ones suggested so far seem to work to me, though.

edited 20th Feb '12 9:53:16 PM by Westrim

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
rodneyAnonymous Sophisticated as Hell from empty space Since: Aug, 2010
#17: Feb 20th 2012 at 9:36:25 PM

The name strongly implies it is exactly The Same But for Crapsack World and Earth-That-Was. The description doesn't help; it could explicitly describe the differences between this and those.

edited 20th Feb '12 9:40:13 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#18: Feb 21st 2012 at 8:49:33 AM

I'd like to change this sentence:

The two variables are how many people still live here with what standard of living and how much damage has been done, both of them related to how far down the road from now the story is.

To this for grammar:

The three variables are how many people still live here, their standard of living, and how much damage has been done; all three are related to how far into the future the story is set.

edited 21st Feb '12 8:49:56 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Westrim deep in though- ow! from The land of hoodoos Since: Jan, 2001
deep in though- ow!
#19: Feb 21st 2012 at 9:29:18 AM

I think I was trying to lump how many people and how well they lived together, but you're right. I'll go rejigger that.

I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
Add Post

Total posts: 19
Top