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Western creators are doomed.

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BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#101: Aug 3rd 2011 at 10:26:01 AM

Your playing that which is the average against that which is exceptional. I could say look at these dozen cheap fetish anime and then compare them to Gargoyles and summarily conclude that Western Animation is better as it focuses on character development, story arcs, and strong mythos while anime relies on cheap fetishes.

The reason that there is more good anime is that there is more anime period.

MoeDantes cuter, cuddlier Edmond from the Land of Classics Since: Nov, 2010
cuter, cuddlier Edmond
#102: Aug 3rd 2011 at 10:53:11 AM

See, two things:

One, I don't know what "cheap fetish anime" you're talking about. I've heard the term thrown around but I have yet to see it.

Two—In all honesty, holding Gargoyles up as "something exceptional" kinda evidences how low American standards are. That show is pretty stock. And those are the feelings I had when I first saw it as a kid, before you go pulling "Seinfeld" Is Unfunny on me.

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BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#103: Aug 3rd 2011 at 10:59:26 AM

For starters Please Twins, and Please Teacher.

kyun Since: Dec, 2010
#104: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:00:35 AM

[up][up]Kiss x Sis, Asobi Ni Iku Yo, Rio! Rainbow Gate...

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#105: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:05:39 AM

Most Harem series, The Idolmaster, etc.

But they are good for what they are, and I genuinely enjoy them.

edited 3rd Aug '11 11:06:08 AM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#106: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:11:01 AM

I will admit to liking more than a few shows like those, but I know they are still a cheap LCD shows much like many kids comedy shows in the states except going for cheap titillation in addition to cheap laughs.

kyun Since: Dec, 2010
#107: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:16:57 AM

[up][up][up][up]Kampfer, Training With Hinako, Seikeki (which is about pretty girls fighting for a reason that is never made clear, mind you)...

edited 3rd Aug '11 11:18:43 AM by kyun

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#108: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:19:38 AM

You spelled Sekirei wrong.

And It is explained why they fight at some point in the manga.

The anime is a just a peice of shit adaptation.

Like I said before, I think if more Video Game creators got more involved with western animation, there would be a lot better and more unique series in the west.

Look at Yoshitaka Amano. Before he started work for Final Fantasy, he did the character designs for Vampire Hunter D. It ended up being an awesome series.

edited 3rd Aug '11 11:19:53 AM by Demongodofchaos2

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Arpanet Since: Aug, 2010
#109: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:21:07 AM

I'm pretty sure Eiken counts as a cheap fetish anime.

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#110: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:23:39 AM

[up]Now that is a low blow to cheap fetish anime every where.

kyun Since: Dec, 2010
#111: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:26:54 AM

[up][up][up]Maybe I'm confusing that with Kampfer.

As for the video game thing, I actually think it's the inverse. Animators, once they get into video games, no longer want to return to working on shows or movies. I have a college friend who's been working in video games ever since, and has no intention at all of going into another field. Video game animation is just much better than in animated films as of now, if you don't count how they all look alike.

edited 3rd Aug '11 11:29:27 AM by kyun

jayday12345678910 Since: Nov, 2010
#112: Aug 3rd 2011 at 2:37:46 PM

Doesnt this kind of thing include animation from everywhere?

....Why
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#113: Aug 3rd 2011 at 5:19:08 PM

Did you just say He-Man 2003 is simply just "Darker and Edgier", not because it is made with a complete update with actual competent writing?

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#114: Aug 4th 2011 at 12:57:21 AM

Yeah, I recall the He-Man update with fondness because "maturely written" doesn't automatically mean "Darker and Edgier." It was simply the original show with modern sensibilities. The recently premiered Thundercats cartoon is getting lauded for the same thing.

As for the main topic at hand, no one sets out to lose money on a project. All works done in different countries are to try and make money. It doesn't matter if the concept is cool, interesting or original. If a creator doesn't have "marketability" in mind a new project will not work out, one of the first things you are taught to do is figure if there is an audience for it. I had a conversation with a friend and we both agreed that a lot of indie films are just as bad as mainstream films simply due to any of the True Art tropes (It's Foreign, Angsty or Incomprehensible, therefore it must be better).

One of the reasons I have lost interest in Anime in general is because of realizing the high number of episodes for a series is simply to pad out the revenue. A higher episode count allows for a lot more filler than what you see in similarly structured American serials. An anime-made Avatar The Last Airbender would be three times as many episodes and have not nearly the same quality per episode.

edited 4th Aug '11 12:57:53 AM by KJMackley

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#115: Aug 4th 2011 at 4:18:23 AM

@ Moe Dantes: Yes, when anime adapt a work into animated form, they are much more faithful to the original than American cartoons tend to be. But that's not because the Japanese cartoon makers respect the source material so much more; it's because most of the time they expect that many fans of the anime will also be fans of the manga/novel/videogame it's based on, and changing things around could turn them off.

American comic books (at least in this day and age) don't have a fanbase anywhere close to size of manga's (I read somewhere that over half of all books and magazines printed in Japan are manga). As such, when an American cartoon is based on a comic book series, the producers (correctly) assume that fans of the original comics will make up a fairly small portion of their audience, so they're less shy about pissing the comic fans off in order to attract a larger non-comic reading audience.

Again, I agree with your assessment of the way things are, but I disagree about the motives leading to the situation. It's not a question of artistic respect or integrity; it's just that the best way to make money off a cartoon in Japan is different from the best way to make money off a cartoon in the U.S.

Oh, and if you support creativity in the animation industry, shouldn't you be frustrated that so many anime are slavish adaptations of stories from different mediums? Wouldn't you rather that the cartoon studios had greater freedom to come up with and tell their own stories?

jayday12345678910 Since: Nov, 2010
#116: Aug 4th 2011 at 5:30:22 AM

IT reeaaly fells like Moe is putting anime on a pedestal.

....Why
eX 94. Grandmaster of Shark Since: Jan, 2001
94. Grandmaster of Shark
#117: Aug 4th 2011 at 7:20:45 AM

Not only that, he is using flat out wrong information and presents his personal opinions as facts. So nothing new.

I am aware that this sounds rather harsh, but this discussion happened before and it always goes the same way.

edited 4th Aug '11 7:33:35 AM by eX

MoeDantes cuter, cuddlier Edmond from the Land of Classics Since: Nov, 2010
cuter, cuddlier Edmond
#118: Aug 4th 2011 at 1:28:42 PM

Did you just say He-Man 2003 is simply just "Darker and Edgier", not because it is made with a complete update with actual competent writing?

Yeah, I recall the He-Man update with fondness because "maturely written" doesn't automatically mean "Darker and Edgier." It was simply the original show with modern sensibilities

Keep in mind this opinion is coming from a guy who went the extra mile to get the original nine-disc release of the series, including a Best Buy variant that came with an exclusive bonus disc:

... no, just no.

Again, I agree with your assessment of the way things are, but I disagree about the motives leading to the situation. It's not a question of artistic respect or integrity; it's just that the best way to make money off a cartoon in Japan is different from the best way to make money off a cartoon in the U.S.

I think I see where we're having a communication kerfluffle. See, I'm not talking about motives. I'm talking about the industry setup. While both animation forms have some things in common, the fact is they inherently work differently that's why they get different results.

It's comparable to the difference between a steak knife and butter knife—they're similar concepts, and maybe similar steps happen in the process, but they play out differently and that ultimately influences the end result. And in this case, that means you'll be using the steak knife far more than the butter knife (if you have a taste for meat, anyway).

Not only that, he is using flat out wrong information

Such as what? My statements about manga publishing were sourced from a Shonen Jump article, and I named the issue. I could probably find a source for every other statement I've made too, if you could point out the "wrong information" you've spotted.

And make sure it's truly wrong information, not just an instance of bad communication.

I am aware that this sounds rather harsh, but this discussion happened before and it always goes the same way.

And it will happen again, because as Yahtzee says "if I'm still bothered by it, then its still a problem."

Maybe you don't notice, or you do but its not as big a deal to you. Fine. But that doesn't mean I have to be complacent.

IT reeaaly fells like Moe is putting anime on a pedestal.

Only insofar as I'm calling it better than Western Animation.

I need to clarify: a few people here seem to think that I hate cartoons. I don't. I have several on DVD, and for as much as I rag I do watch some of the shows I complain about. But let's not kid ourselves—anime is simply better. You can say you like plain spaghetti just fine but if you start trying to say you like that better than spaghetti with any topping or add-in whatsoever, then one has to question your sanity.

edited 4th Aug '11 1:40:56 PM by MoeDantes

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harkko Since: Apr, 2010
#119: Aug 4th 2011 at 1:50:29 PM

Actually, a Japanese made Avatar would be 26 or 50 episodes long at most, unless it had a popular manga supporting it. All the over 50 episode series are based on either manga or some book (Legend Of The Galactic Heroes.

In my opinion ATLA had too many fillers in the first season, whereas many anime series at least start with a filler free story arc (10 episodes or so), where something happens in every episode, like for example Nadia or even Golion.

jayday12345678910 Since: Nov, 2010
#120: Aug 4th 2011 at 1:52:30 PM

Explain? Whenever I here people say that they say "its more adult" "the characters are deeper" "not just for kids" and other vague justifications like that. If you say that anime is better than cartoons than youre just flat out wrong. Thats like saying that you think all comedies are better than action movies because "they are funny" and say that every comedy is better than every action movie. There are tons of shitty anime running now and there are shitty cartoons generalizing everything in one specific group is very petty.

edited 4th Aug '11 2:58:56 PM by jayday12345678910

....Why
harkko Since: Apr, 2010
#121: Aug 4th 2011 at 2:01:44 PM

For me personally it's just much easier to find anime that pleases me than American cartoons. For example, pretty much all American TV cartoons made in the 70s are unwatchable for me, whereas a lot of my favorite anime series were made on that decade (Anne Of Green Gables, Galaxy Express 999, Candy Candy, Mobile Suit Gundam, Future Boy Conan, Space Pirate Captain Harlock).

MoeDantes cuter, cuddlier Edmond from the Land of Classics Since: Nov, 2010
cuter, cuddlier Edmond
#122: Aug 4th 2011 at 5:50:45 PM

To put it simply, I often just find anime is "more." More interesting, more emotional content, and better executed.

All right, that's just as vague as the stuff you were saying so let me qualify it a bit. Basically, I find that anime evokes a range of emotion and intellectual activity that just doesn't happen that often in Western Cartoons. I can't always explain why it is, but I think a part of it is that anime often lets you infer stuff while cartoons usually flat out explain everything, and more importantly Western writers have a bad habit of letting the direction of the show influence what they can or can't do. Like if they decide this cartoon is dark and edgy, all the sudden the comedy relief characters have to go, everyone has to scowl all the time, there can't be many heartwarming moments. It's the exact opposite of, say, this, which is a very dark series and yet still has plenty of cute, heartwarming moments and the angst all comes from credible sources rather than just making everyone an asshole, which is what a lot of western productions do.

In other words: Too many cartoons lack contrast, and while the idea is good they often pull it off the wrong way.

i hope that got something across. I'm on a time limit right now so I had to type down just the first thing I could think of. I'll probably end up revising this entire post later. But there you go.

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Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#123: Aug 4th 2011 at 7:14:41 PM

But let's not kid ourselves—anime is simply better.

I can see Engineer's head going up and spouting a negatory statement.

And more =/= better btw, especially when you just ignore a lot of things Western animation does.

edited 4th Aug '11 7:15:39 PM by Ookamikun

MoeDantes cuter, cuddlier Edmond from the Land of Classics Since: Nov, 2010
cuter, cuddlier Edmond
#124: Aug 4th 2011 at 8:33:07 PM

To put it simply, I often just find anime is "more." More interesting, more emotional content, and better executed.

And more =/= better btw,

... Okay, so there's some way of thinking where being interesting, emotional and well-executed are not things to strive for. The more you know...

especially when you just ignore a lot of things Western animation does.

I'm not sure what it is I'm "ignoring."

edited 4th Aug '11 9:07:33 PM by MoeDantes

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Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#125: Aug 4th 2011 at 9:40:26 PM

You're saying as if Western animators don't "strive" to do things what you said, and that Japanese ones do.


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