Again, "you might as well say the moon is just as hot as the sun because they both give off light."
Marvel cartoons = invented by suits, made primarily to keep their core characters in the public consciousness. Also, mostly regurgitations of sixty-year-old comics (I'm not sure what these "unique spins" you're talking about are).
Shonen Jump anime = invented by artists wanting to tell a story, made primarily because the original manga had a fanbase and they thought it would blossom with an animated adaptation. Also, at least whatever you're watching was invented this decade.
visit my blog!But that has little if nothing to do with merchandising. Sure, merchandising does put certain limits on creative possibilities, but the reason anime seems to have fewer limits isn't because merchandising is less important to them. It's just that merchandise for American cartoons is almost solely targeted at children and teens, while anime producers have figured out how to turn a profit by catering to twenty/thirty-something otakus as well. The more varied your target demographics are, the more varied your stories are going to be.
And most anime are merchandise driven because the merchandise is the reason they exist. If there were no merchandise there would be no investors and the show would never get made. Sure, the people who originally came up with the story idea may not have had merchandise on their mind (although I bet more of them do than you think), but they're only one part of vast collaborative effort it takes to make a cartoon show. Plus so many anime are adaptations of pre-existing stories that the original creators of the story are often barely involved in the production of the show at all.
Many of the most popular shonen jump series are based on series that started in the 90s. The anime are made by suits who see potential profitability in a well selling manga. At best they fallow they create a cohesive and complete story from a manga nowhere near completion like Trigun, at worst they completely disregard the mangaka's intent for a quick cash in like the the first two Negima series.
For any long series, outside of filler, you often have a direct adaption that is paced like a manga. Say what you will about western cartoons but no one would ever let them get away with having an episode that is 20 minutes of people expositing to each other.
I was never talking about merchandising. In fact here's my original statement
. I don't see a single line about merchandise in there, do you?
People keep bringing up "but but there's merchandise!" as if that proves something, and it really doesn't.
You might want to check some copyright dates, because a lot of those anime are probably also from the 1990s.
Good thing most anime are quite short and Shonen Jump is just one of the dozens of magazines they can adapt anime from.
Admittedly, things were a little better back when OV As were a big thing, but I rarely see these huge pacing issues (probably because I don't watch Bleach and Naruto) that people keep harping on.
... You didn't watch the 1990s X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons, did you? ;)
visit my blog!Meh, I don't really care. Things can go in Cyclles, after all. Personally, I think a New wave of mature animations in the Vein of Spawn The Animation, Aeon Flux, The Maxx and others like it might come back. I wouldn't be surpised if the Creators of Avatar The Last Airbender would make it, or something.
As for the Anime side of things, They tend to have advantages in that the Animation Age Ghetto is there, buts its a different type of ghetto than what ours is. Where we have a hatred for over the tope sexuality and mature themes that SCAR CHIDREN OH MY GOD, Anime haters hate openly sexual relationships between characters and have a much different take on racial issues than the US.
But neither Eastern or Western animators are doomed because of it. It's just something each side will eventually grow out of with each coming genration and new blood appearing in the industry to replace the grouchy old fools of today.
Another Thing That I feel Wester animation needs to do better, is get a better relationship with the Video Game Industry, something that Japanese animators have been doing for decades.
edited 2nd Aug '11 3:54:36 PM by Demongodofchaos2
Watch Symphogear@Moe Dantes: You complained that about a sort of sameness your perceived in most American animation which you blame on the network's desire to make a marketable show. My point was simply that anime producers are just as driven by marketability, but that the broader range of demographics they market to allows the creative types involved in the process more freedom.
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Semantics. "Marketability" just means potential for merchandise. And while some anime won't blatantly feature their own merchandise like toys and such, most of them are certainly not "for the art". Shows like Queen's Blade and the like (which are a large chunk of anime out there, like it or not) are there solely to make money off of arousing otaku or by figure sales, etc.
As for recent 90's shonen anime: One Piece, Naruto, Detective Conan, Inuyasha: Final Act, Yu-Gi-Oh! spinoff #4237, Dragon Ball Kai, Hunter x Hunter (new show being made)
Out of curiosity, what Western shows since the 90's have you actually watched?
edited 2nd Aug '11 5:13:34 PM by chdr
Shows like Queen's Blade and the like (which are a large chunk of anime out there, like it or not) are there solely to make money off of arousing otaku or by figure sales, etc
I don't see that as being anywhere close to being bad.
Watch SymphogearIm starting to think Merchandise-Driven has lost any and all meaning.
Sure, Dragon Ball is a cash cow and all. But it was a manga with a story first and when that story proved popular it became a cash cow.
You guys could use the term mindless cash cow. Or that "Its only about Money" Now I know Dantes (I call him that) is going a bit overboard and being overly dismisive of Western Animation, but lets not cause Trope Decay.
And its not that being Merchandise Driven means "Creatively Bankrupt" or that the fact that the story was first and foremost means the result will be a masterpiece.
The true negative aspect of Merchandise Driven-ness is that great shows get cancelled if they dont sell toys (Adventures Of The Galaxy Rangers BTW not a superhero show Dantes) and mediocre ones survive if they do (Generator Rex...UGH.). Also of note is the amazing Sym Bionic Titan which was very story driven but was killed by CN for.....Wait for it....not having a toy-line, in other words,not being marketable.
Its a case by case basis. I love both anime and western animation and saying or believing the other is better is a great disservice.
For I do know for a fact that western animation is more way more than just superheroes and Looney Toons Knockoffs and anime is way more than pandering and cliched stuff.
You do know Dragon Ball Z Kai got canned due to merchandising failure, right?
I said it before, I'll say it again: "having merchandise" and "being merchandise-driven" are entirely different things.
Your reasoning seems to be "it has merchandise, therefore it must be merchandise-driven!" If I'm reading you right, then Isaac Asimov's I, Robot, Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tales, the Holy Bible and even early Pagan religions are merchandise-driven.
Your example would be a lot better if you picked on something like Yu-Gi-Oh, where the original author altered the story to facilitate merchandise. Dragonball never really went through a phase like that.
Sure, Dragon Ball is a cash cow and all. But it was a manga with a story first and when that story proved popular it became a cash cow.
FINALLY! THE VOICE OF REASON!
I've given pretty much every cartoon on TV today at least one chance to impress me.
edited 3rd Aug '11 12:31:00 AM by MoeDantes
visit my blog!Getting cancelled because of failing merchandise rather than failing ratings shows that the driving force behind keeping Kai on the air was the wringing a bit more merch out of the Dragon Ball franchise. To me that makes Kai merchandise as its only reason for existing was to sell more Dragon Ball toys.
I know that Ookami-kun.
But still, DBZ Kai was a cheap cash in anyway (THAT is the correct term). And that only means it failed to be marketable. Which is still different than being Merch Driven, Sym Bionic Titan also got cancelled for not selling merchandise and that's hardly Merch Driven.
Although you might be right. Im not sure.
At Dantes:AWWWWWWWWW! Thank you! But please dont be so dismissive of Western Animation, it makes it you look elitist.
Not that Im saying being Merch Driven is bad. Just that I want to avoid Trope Decay.
Ill make a list of anime that is Merch Driven
Pretty Cure Ojamajo Doremi All Yu Gi Oh's Digimon
Those were made solely and only to shill merchandise. BUT(There is a but)This doesnt actually mean they are bad shows and in fact are quite cool. There are some rotten apples, like Bakugan, though.
In fact, like I said, this is one of the few ways anything Anime First gets made.
Same with Western Animation. There are pretty decent american shows that were made with selling merchandise in mind.
The true wrongness of this lies in that it allows lousy shows like Bakugan(Anime) and Generator Rex(American) to thrive while less profitable but higher quality shows get the shaft.This, thankfully, is pretty rare.
Im actually Pro-quality, not simply pro-anime or pro-western animation. As long as there's quality there's no problem for me.
Dragonball the manga was not particularly merchandise driven because it could finance itself and turn a profit purely through the sales boost it game Weekly Shonen Jump and the sales of its collected volumes. Dragonball the anime, however, was much more merchandise driven because without the merchandise it's doubtful there would have been an anime. Regardless of the inspiration for the source material, the inspiration for "let's turn this into a cartoon series!" was driven by the marketing department.
Also, I think some people are underestimating how often mangaka take merchandise potential into account when creating a series. In the author's notes to Hyde And Closer the mangaka actually says that he did a series based on living stuffed animals because it was a concept that could be easily translted into a toy line.
edited 3rd Aug '11 3:03:26 AM by RavenWilder
You missed the point. Kai was cancelled because its merchandise isn't selling. A bunch of anime also wouldn't get new seasons if it weren't for merchandise.
And don't worry Coco Natts, I'm with you in your stance. I wasn't against you. :P
edited 3rd Aug '11 7:37:08 AM by Ookamikun
See now, here's the thing:
To stick with this example, both anime adaptations of the DB manga follow said manga quite closely. They could have, at any point, said "Piccolo is popular. Let's make him the main character!" But they don't. At worst, they give him more of a role in the filler episodes—and they do that for just about everybody (even Lunch, who wasn't even in the Z-portion of the manga).
They could've given Astro Boy or the cast of Cyborg 009 sleek, updated designs that would've looked "cool" to modern kids. They didn't.
They could have made the TV adaptation of The Guyver Darker and Edgier. They didn't.
Okay, granted, there are odd cases like FMA and the afformentioned Negima, and of course anything Anime First or actually based on a merchandising line is probably going to be as commercialistic as any episode of Ben 10. But the point is that they've got stuff that isn't that. And it's not just one or two little exceptions here and there but rather half the output.
America's track record is far worse. Remake He-Man but make it Darker and Edgier because that's what the kids like nowadays (nevermind that He-Man isn't known for being "edgy"). Make a new X-Men cartoon but have Wolverine be their leader because he's the one all the kids like, no matter how retarded the plot and characters have to be to make that work. Let's do Teen Titans in an anime visual style because hey don't kids like anime nowadays? And even though Thundercats and Ponies actually turned out good, their production had basically the same idea in mind—that's why both are based on twenty-year-old franchises.
I know this sounds like weeaboo rambling, but I don't see how you can know facts like these—how you can watch a slew of Cartoon Network shows and then watch say Haruhi—and not come to the same conclusion I did. Sometimes, the extremist fans actually are right.
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edited 2nd Aug '11 8:52:48 AM by nabaduco